Bad Things Happen. Here's What God Promised

Somebody you love gets sick.  A marriage falls apart.  A kid dies too young.  And somewhere in the middle of it, the question shows up whether you invited it or not.  Where is God right now?

This episode isn't going to answer that question.  Not the way you want it answered, anyway.  Instead, Jim and Larry sit inside it.  They walk through Job.  Not the Sunday school version, the real one, where God doesn't explain himself and Job doesn't get a reason.  They talk about what gets promised in scripture and what doesn't. Because here's the thing nobody tells you: God never actually promised comfort.  He promised Joy and He promised Peace.  Those are not the same thing, and confusing them will wreck your faith the first time life gets hard.

No tidy bow on this one.  Just an honest look at the hardest question people ask, and what it might mean to keep believing anyway.

Bible References:

John 16:33

James 1:2-4

Job 2:9-10, Chapters 38-39 & 42:10-17

https://faithcurious.buzzsprout.com/2569002

You Tube:  https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6LMmRuPXqtRFaYp8JuA7Wg

Reach Jim & Larry at faithcuriouspodcast@gmail.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:06

Hey everyone, welcome to Faith Curious. So, what makes this conversation about Faith different? Hey, we're just two guys with no hidden agenda. What you see is what you get.

SPEAKER_02 0:18

It is a brand new day. Faith Curious Nations. Thank you so much for joining us. I am Larry Horton, and I am joined by Jim McCauley. Jim, how are you doing, my friend?

SPEAKER_01 0:28

Uh Larry, I am uh wonderful, my friend. Very, very excited about the show today. We're gonna talk about uh why do bad things happen? And that the the the first place uh some people go is well, but if there's if there's God, like why do bad things happen? God, you know, everything's supposed to be great, amen.

SPEAKER_02 0:51

Right, and on the heels of of that last episode that we did, which I highly recommend you check out. Uh there the it's a free lunch episode. It this also kind of strikes to the justice conversation that we had before. Uh, and and man, for us, there has to be some kind of rhythm to it, meaning to it, equation to it. Like it all has to mean something. Sometimes it doesn't. That really kind of goes against our wiring.

SPEAKER_01 1:21

Okay, if there's a God and God loves us, man, what's up with the stuff that happens to kids or this horrible, you know, this person did this horrible thing or this horrible disease. You know what? They struggle with it, and I get it. So that's what we're gonna chat about.

SPEAKER_02 1:38

And I'm gonna start with the story. I'm gonna start with the story as we as we enter into this conversation because I think it really speaks to the fact that as we're having this conversation, we're not talking about what's out there. We are talking about that, but we're also coming from our own filters, our own experiences, and our own histories. And um, the story I'm about to tell you is a a kid named Larry who uh you know victimized by some people who he should have been able to trust as a as a young boy. Uh, and then as a police officer, early, early in my career, I saw some injustices that were done against children. Uh, that I I I was able to kind of witness firsthand and some pretty pretty traumatic stuff, some stuff I haven't forgotten about for my entire life. Um, you know, we've all seen some suffering out there, we've all seen some things that just weren't right. I'm sure you've probably seen and felt and and and experienced some things as well.

SPEAKER_01 2:47

Well, who hasn't, right? Like, you know, I mean, I saw my mom, you know, just go through severe depression most of her life, you know, got got an autoimmune disease that eventually took her life from out of nowhere. Um have a a daughter that you know struggles with mental illness, was bullied as a kid by other kids, right? Um I was bullied as a kid on the playground. Um, you know, like all things that aren't pleasing, you know, but are part of life. Um, but I want to go back to your thing. So um I appreciate you sharing that. It sounds like it, you know, it's a pretty horrific um situation, whatever it entailed, but was that something that um like later on in your life, like was that a thing where you're like, oh, there can't be a God if this thing happened to me? What role did that, if any, play in your walk?

SPEAKER_02 3:57

Well, okay, so that's a great question. When things happen to kids, and I'm finding this out now as a father to a daughter. Uh, it's hard for kids to look at that, and this is what I did. I thought to myself, this bad thing happened. I must be bad, or or in some way, shape, or form, I took on the responsibility, and I think it became this kind of shadow that not that wasn't out in front, right? So I went through the rest of my growing up years, all the way, you know, grade school, middle school, high school, and I don't know if I really realized how that was just this undercurrent that was constantly always there. The the just this thing that happened to me that I internalized that was my fault when I was truly just a victim. And I want to just you know, I I know that, and this is not a contest, we're we're not like, hey, you know, you suffered more over here, whatever, because there's there's other folks who have suffered things that are like horrific, horrifically untold, right? Uh, but but for my experience, you know, I remember being at an outpatient situation dealing in recovery, and man, this repressed memory comes out in the middle of a session. And I mean, it hit it might as well have been a fist that hit me right in the face. I mean, it was that strong. Wow. And at that point in my recovery, I was understanding the difference between a punitive God, a God that looked at me and said, You're bad and you deserve punishment, and the transition to a benevolent God that I can rely on, and a God that is like that loves me and and feels that I'm a worthy creation who suffered some injustice. So the answer to your question is no, I realized that that was on this level, um, on this earthly level. I was I was victimized by an evil person. That wasn't a punishment that God laid down on me. It was it was just somebody who wasn't at all connected in any way, shape, or form spiritually, and was just trying to navigate his own demons, I'm sure. Uh, but at the end of the day, like where I was was I am I am now realizing that that that young kid got robbed of something. Uh, and I needed to figure that out now that I'm not that young kid anymore, and I needed to take care of that young kid. And and having that connection with God was so was so empowering. It it was truly like it was like a like a lifeline, like a lighthouse.

SPEAKER_01 7:07

Well, I appreciate you you sharing that story and uh being open to you know digging into a little bit um and sharing your experience, uh, you know, which is which is helpful, very helpful, um, when it comes to this episode. Because listen, like everyone's gone through something, right? And you and like you said, it's not a uh it's not a contest, right? There are people that will be listening to this that will have gone through much worse and much less, right? But everyone still suffers and goes through hard times in this life, and what we want to talk about is all right, like, but how come God doesn't save us from that? Just fix it, just right, or or make it not happen, or you know, especially if he knows everything and he's you know, everything is planned, like he can stop it all. Like, okay, well, if you love us, you know, like why why? Why, right?

SPEAKER_02 8:10

Yeah, and it's such a challenge, right? I think as humans in in our in our condition, we need to there needs to be somebody to blame because because if I can wrap my brain around a cause, then it it feels more comfortable, right?

SPEAKER_01 8:27

Well, and one of the things we talk about, we talked about this in the Bible episode, right? So the the Bible, you know, we believe the Bible is the word of God, and if we're struggling with something in life and we're looking for an answer, you know, we find direction in the Bible. So we to use that here, right? Um, if we go to the Bible, will we find, like if someone randomly at home just googled, you know, did God promise me happiness? In the Bible, what's gonna come up? Crickets, crickets, yeah. Crickets. There's nothing in the Bible where God says, Hey man, you know, don't worry about it. Like, you will have no harm done to you, there will be no pain, everything's gonna be there. There is no promise of happiness in the Bible, and quite the contrary, what is there in the Bible? Promise of trouble. Well, there's a there's all kinds of promises, right? But there is like he told us. Um, where is it? John 16 33, right? This is Jesus talking to the disciples, and Jesus says, I have told you these things so that in me you may have peace. Okay, so that's we're not talking about peace yet, but that's a promise that he didn't promise happiness, but he promised us peace and joy, right? Um in this world, wait for it, you will have trouble. But take heart, I have overcome the world. He's not leading with happiness, right? Like, hey, you're all gonna be happy. This is gonna be an easy ride. He's saying loud and proud, you're gonna have trouble, but lean on me.

SPEAKER_02 10:15

Man, which if I'm a listener right now, I don't want to hear that. That's not that's not the answer I want to hear.

SPEAKER_00 10:23

Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 10:25

I want you to solve all these problems for me. I don't want to feel sad, right?

SPEAKER_01 10:30

What what else does the Bible go on to say? Some people will say, Yeah, man, but I see like joy is all over the place. He promises us joy in the Bible. So I got what's the difference? Like, isn't you know, like and and well, first of all, let me just go to it in the book of James, again in the New Testament. This is chapter one, uh verse two to four. So, like this is James, like right out of the gate, the first chapter, almost the first verse. James says, consider a pure joy, my brothers and sisters. Whenever you face trials of many kinds, so again, a lot of trouble, right? Because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance. So, in other words, James is saying, Hey, you're gonna have hard times, but in those hard times, you're gonna have joy. So, it's it's in the hard times you're gonna have joy, you're not gonna have like the hard times don't you don't then get joy once you go through the hard times. You don't have to go through hard to get joy.

SPEAKER_02 11:42

You joy sits right next to the hard times, and I think this I love what you're saying because defining joy as not happiness is something that I think that our listeners gotta wrap our uh wrap their brains around. I know I had an issue wrapping my brain around that saying okay, okay, so joy. So I can actually be working extremely hard, not having fun at all, in service to another human being, see them thrive or rise or whatever in in the face of my uh struggle or what have you, and feel joy in that moment, which is not necessarily happiness. You know, yes, God did not promise happiness. He did, he did talk quite a bit about joy, and in that you got to understand what joy is, like define that, like love and forgiveness and and all these other terms like trust that we're that were really breaking down for you that are like, all right, what does this really mean? So that's that's a massive foundational block to the conversation we're about to have.

SPEAKER_01 12:49

Well, and here's something I know, Larry, and I know you know it too, right? Like we as human beings, we aren't always really good at understanding emotions, right? Or defining emotions. So you got happiness and you got joy. And I'll just say this like compare and contrast, happiness like is driven by a vets, you know. You you go outside, um, you find ten dollars on your driveway, you're happy, right? Hey, yeah, the Dodgers lose.

SPEAKER_02 13:17

I'm very happy, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:19

And you know what? We don't have to worry about that anymore because we already lost our LA listeners from you. Um, but joy, on the other hand, comes from within, right? So one comes from events, yes, joy comes from within, you know, uh from a deep sense of purpose, core values, faith. So joy is deeper, longer, more things, and you know, kind of a uh contribute to the joy where happiness kind of comes and goes. I found 10 bucks. Awesome, cool. Jump in my truck, pull out of the driveway, hit the car, and that's parked across the street. I got my happiness is gone, right? You know, I was thinking about this too in this episode, because thinking about this joy, right? Um, and I didn't really realize this, but one of the one of the prayers that I say I've for years, and I've connected with this just through my journey, right? Through struggling, through screwing up, screw, through hurting other people, um, through owning that, being accountable to that, making different choices going forward, right? Yeah, and in that I realize like I I have joy. Yeah, it's a lot of tough stuff, but I have joy in that because of the journey. And one of my prayers is literally just a line, just thanking God for my trials and my tribulations, right? Thanking him for the journey I've been on, even though it's been hard at times and I haven't shown up in the best way at times, but I'm so grateful for it because it helped me grow along the way and it brought me to where I am right now, and I and that I have I have a lot of joy about my journey.

SPEAKER_02 15:17

I love that. Um okay, so I'm a listener listening to you say that, choose joy, right? And and and on on one hand, I'm a listener and I'm gonna say yes, I agree with that. On the other hand, I'm gonna say, but but how can a true victim, let's say you're you're an infant that that uh contracted cancer, right? And and uh you know, there's there's no hope, there's no cure, you're going to die without ever living. How can God let that happen? How can God let this poor innocent kid who's done nothing wrong, you know, and and how can how can this you know before they even get a chance? Like if I'm a listener, I'm like, that's just not right.

SPEAKER_01 15:58

Yeah, you know, and it's not like it's not right for a child to, you know, a defenseless child to contract some rare disease and maybe not only die, but maybe be going a little through a lot of pain in that process. Like that's it's that's horrible, right? It's horrible, and I don't and I don't know that like I don't have an answer to that. Like, you don't have you know what I mean? Like, like I do know what you mean. I and I'm not gonna try to come up with an answer to that and say, oh, you know, you just gotta trust God, or or you know, like He's in heaven now, or like man, all that stuff, you know, don't don't ever use it, right? Like it falls flat, it's not comforting. Um, yeah, yeah. And we're trying, you know, we're we're doing what we as humans always try to do when we talk about faith is we're trying to line it up and explain it and understand it, and sometimes we just can't.

SPEAKER_02 16:56

Bro, bold print, slam that on the table for the love of God. A lot of our episodes are curious, of the faith, curious. They they lean more on the curious, yeah. This is the one, this is one of the episodes we're we're yeah, it's curious, but we're really leaning on the faith for this one, yeah. And because it we we can we concede, we just don't have the answer to the question that we're even posing right now.

SPEAKER_01 17:22

Let's can we talk about the story of Job?

SPEAKER_02 17:26

Not yet.

SPEAKER_01 17:27

Not yet.

SPEAKER_02 17:28

Let's let's do this.

SPEAKER_01 17:30

Yeah, did you say not yet?

SPEAKER_02 17:32

We haven't talked about the story of Job.

SPEAKER_01 17:33

Oh, yeah. I said, can we talk about the story of Job?

SPEAKER_02 17:35

Oh, oh, oh, no, yeah. Sorry, I thought you said have we?

SPEAKER_01 17:38

I thought he said no. I thought he said no. I thought he just shut me out, listeners. Yeah, let's talk. Yeah, amen. Hit it. I love it. Yeah, it you may or may not be familiar with the story of Job. Um and yeah, I mean, the first thing I'll say is Job is spelled J O B, right? So it's a story of Job, right? Like who's Job, man? Here's the the story of Job is it's it's kind of what you just said about the infant, right? First of all, like who is Job? This is an old testament story. Um, he was described by God. So this is a time when God like lived among the people, not as human, right? But people experience God. They heard from him, God talked to them, right? They they saw miracles, you know, the whole nine, the whole nine yards. And God described Job as there is no one on earth like him. He's blameless and upright. Okay, so God's saying, you know, Job loves me, Job's doing it right, he's legit. I'm I'm endorsing Job, but I approve this message, right? Teacher's pet. And yet Satan takes everything from Job. And by that I mean all his animals, so his possessions, the things that he job was a wealthy guy, right? And back then wealth was animals to some degree, right? Like that was your livelihood. You traded, you sold, you you ate, right? Took all his animals, all his possessions. Took his kids. Yeah, that's I think ten, I think ten kids or something like that. Took his kids and then afflicted this horrible disease on him, and he took his health. Was it like boils run his yeah, like it's disgusting? Disgusting and painful, and you know, so he takes everything, Satan takes everything from Job and God allows it. I mean, because God is there just like his God allows everything to happen today. And I think, you know, let's put a pin in this for a second and talk about allow. God gives us free choice, right? Like he gives us the freedom to make our decisions, and with that comes good and bad. Now, I'm not this wasn't a decision by Job, right? But if we're okay, if we're okay with the free choice, you know, we're okay with both sides of it, right? You gotta be good with either side, amen. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So so Job loses everything. Now he's married, okay, and he's got also this community of friends, and so it's a pretty long um chapter, right? Or it's a pretty long book, rather, um, where Job is just like pleading to God, lamenting, getting angry, talking with his community, and his guys are showing up, and they're like, Dang, you know, yell at him, be pissed at you know, like giving him all this advice, none of it works, none of it's good. You know, his wife at one point says her her response to Job after like so much has gone by, she's like, curse God and die. That that's her advice to her husband, and and remember Satan took everything from Job, which means he also took everything from his wife, right? Right, okay, right, yeah, curse God and die. Okay, how does Job respond to his wife? He says, Shall we receive good from God and shall we not receive evil? That what a perspective, right? Not uh, not on a guy who you know lost uh a lot of money in the stock market, right?

SPEAKER_02 21:43

Like he lost his his offspring is dead.

SPEAKER_01 21:48

He lost it all. So so all that happens, and you know, really what Job is doing is trying to make sense of it, right? He's trying to understand it. He's blameless, you know? He's like no other man on earth according to God. And all this stuff happens to him. Okay? And you know, at the very end, God answers, right? And his answer to like why bad things happen is essentially I'm not gonna tell you why, but I'll show you who I am. So Job gets presence and perspective, not an explanation. Right now, but listen to this. Listen, this is beautiful. God, this is what God actually says to Job. He's basically saying, Hey man, like do you know who I am? You know? Yeah. He says, Where were you when I laid the earth's foundations? Do you know where light comes from or where snow is stored? Can you make the wild ox serve you? Do you give the horse its strength? Etc. etc. etc. Like like beautiful, right? And God is basically saying, listen, people, if first of all, if you understand everything about me, I'm not that big a deal, right? Like boom. I'm not that big a deal. Number, you know, number one. And then, you know, number two, you know, to some degree, stop asking why, and just start asking who I am and looking at who I am and trust in me. Um, and and you will get joy and peace. I promise you. And he promises joy and peace throughout the Bible.

SPEAKER_02 23:54

And and this statement about God's will over our will, that's hard. That's that that's that's difficult to accept.

SPEAKER_00 24:07

Right.

SPEAKER_02 24:07

And I think uh really the theme is the acceptance, and and you know, I I we both, I'm gonna speak for you, have no idea what the plan is. God's plan. I mean, and and to pretend to even understand would be arrogant and and just holy cow, blasphemous. But at the end of the day, like I remember, I remember sitting in my shrink's office, and she was like, Yeah, you're one of the most willful clients I've ever had. I was like, Oh yeah, and she goes, Yeah, you're very willful. And I remember thinking to myself, okay, and and and through the steps, you're you're really challenged to submit and surrender your will over to the will of God. And it speaks to the fact that you know, a accept that I just don't have control over the things I think I have the control over, right? I also have to accept that in this world, bad things are going to happen, right? Because there are bad people, there's evil in the world, there are bad people in the world, and there's also things that aren't necessarily like you know, earthquakes and volcanoes, and like there's just things are are things are bad. Things are gonna, I don't like that. I don't want to feel sad about that, but I have to accept that there are things that are out of my control that are sad that I can't, you know, and it's and it's not there's no justice in like or what my frame of justice because we're human, we're gonna want to understand them, right?

SPEAKER_01 25:49

Because it feels better, but yeah, yeah, it feels better, you know, everything's in order, right? We get it. Yeah, because we want to we want to go back and say, oh, well, and maybe if I didn't do this, it wouldn't happen, right? Or or if this didn't happen, you know, whatever. Okay, we're trying to make sense of it. But and really it's kind of one of the messages is yeah, but you know, instead of making sense of it, like know me, you know, lean on me. And you know, the good thing about this story, too, is at the very end, God restores everything to Job. Yeah, the family, the livestock, the health. It makes, you know, I think he makes them richer, right? Not that that's important or not, but he restores everything to Job.

SPEAKER_02 26:34

Funny thing, little little Jeopardy trivia about the book of Job. It's the it's the first book that was ever written, uh for the Bible, which is funny because people think that uh Genesis was the first book because it is the first book, really. Yeah, but I did not know the book of Job was actually the first book that was written, even though it's not the first book in the Bible. And then at the same time, then you look too, you know, and and even God is saying to himself, listen, I'm not above this either. I'm gonna take my own son and I'm going to love you so much that I'm gonna sacrifice him and kill him. And to the deal that he is he is playing praying drops of blood, uh you know, and and asking for not to be tortured, right? Like, talk about injustice. The guy didn't do anything wrong and was as murdered simply, you know, for nothing else but to atone for us for our sins. Like, holy cow! Like, talk about that's and he like talk about walking the walk. So, yeah, he did that to Job. He also did it to himself, and he did it to himself for even though we don't deserve this, just like the injustice of the people who who who experienced tragedy and crisis, they don't deserve that necessarily in some cases, but it happens, man.

SPEAKER_01 27:54

Well, yeah, I mean, to be honest with you, if we got what we deserved, oh yeah, more bad things would be happening. There'd be like three people in the world, right? Right, right. You know, you were talking about surrender. Um, I just want to share a little story with you were with me on this trip, but um was a men's group retreat thing up north in Prescott, and we did a prayer walk, right? And like I recommend this to anyone because it was a really, really cool experience. Um again, the setting was idyllic. We're in the pine trees, we're did like this mile loop hike, you know, flat, no big deal, it was a beautiful day. There were maybe 10 of us, and there was maybe like 100, 200 yards between us, right? So we weren't like together communing, right? It was an individual experience for each one of us, but we're we're walking, like I'm walking, and it's peaceful. And the charge was to pay attention to your senses, right? To you know, what do you see? What do you hear? The hearing was a hard one, like you know, hearing like a branch crunch under your foot, especially when you're in the middle of a forest and it's quiet, except for these little random sounds, right? Um, smell, like I smell isn't something that I typically necessarily tap into unless I'm eating, right? Or you know, whatever. Um, but so pain, like really just being hyper-focused on all your senses, and then asking God, what do you want to show me? Not big, elaborate prayer to God, but just talking to God. And I remember at that time, our youngest daughter was going through a really, really difficult time with anxiety. Um, man, it was just it was something that honestly, like, I don't know that we handled well. I know we didn't handle it well. Um, we didn't understand it. We tried to, but we didn't understand it. Anyway, it was a it was a thing, and it was a it was years of just really one thing after another that was really, really difficult for her that was hard to see her go through. And I was praying to God on this walk, you know, for patience, right? Um, because there was some things that came out of that too, where she was acting out, and you know, and I was praying for patience, and man, I'll tell you what, like 10 10 steps into that walk, God said to me, and God doesn't, you know, Jim, this is what I need to do, you know, it's it's a feeling, but what he said to me was not patience, surrender. And this was this was probably close to 10 years ago, and it was one of those moments where I'm like, okay, surrender. And ever since then, for me, it's like it's been surrender, right? Just not that I am surrendering, but that I'm trying to surrender. I realize the importance of surrender, and I just have to turn it over to him, which is so freaking hard day after day after day.

SPEAKER_02 31:11

Holy cow. Giving up your will to submit to the will of God, surrendering to that that God has got you. Yeah. Surrendering to that God has got the world. Like that's hard.

unknown 31:26

Right.

SPEAKER_02 31:26

That's that's uh I don't know if I buy that. But you got you gotta go, you got no choice.

SPEAKER_01 31:33

Well, and you go back to the first verse we talked about, John 13, 33. Jesus says, But take heart, I have overcome the world.

SPEAKER_02 31:43

It is a choice, yeah. It is and again, listen, we don't know the answer. I have no idea what the answer is. You have no idea at the end. We're not trying to tell you here's the answer. I will say this. I here's a here's a tool that I've I've come to to hold on to and subscribe to to kind of cope, but also just to really experience and be present in this in this world, and that's gratitude, right? Yep, yeah. I remember a good friend of mine who was not a believer, uh, had had a death that he suffered. Uh it was uh it was a his wife had a miscarriage, and I uh I was telling him about gratitude, and and he was like, F you bro. I was like, I was like, Yeah, you gotta focus on the gratitude right now. He's like, Yeah, you just just kiss my ass. And I was like, Yeah, that's that's that's appropriate. Yeah, that's uh now. I will say this. It is a choice, and it's and I'm not trying to be some kind of rose-colored glasses kind of guy, but uh, you know, I'm practicing what I preach, and here's what I'm talking about about that. Um, you know, my mom, my mom is a smoker and a drinker. Uh, she doesn't exercise, she doesn't eat really well. My dad, on the other hand, doesn't never touch a lick of alcohol. I think once in his entire, you know, 75, 76 years of life, he he might have had a one drink. He never smoked, he ate amazingly, he worked out like twice a day. And uh when he died over a year and a half ago, I was I was blessed to be next to him in the room holding his hand as as life left his body. And let me tell you, man, uh, you know, I at the time was living in Arizona a whole time zone away when he he passed away in Oregon. And uh I was very blessed to my mom called me earlier that day and she said, Your dad's struggling, you got to come over here. And so I left the house and I went over to his hospice room and um, you know, I was there. I had gratitude in the face of that grieving loss because I was there in that moment. I was able to hold his hand, and not everybody can say that, right? Right, and and and and doesn't change the fact that I lost my dad, doesn't change the fact that it was death, right? Yeah, but man, gratitude, I'm choosing joy. Bad things are gonna happen in this world, right? I can't explain them, I don't know the reason or why, and I'm never gonna understand God's will or the plan, but I can choose, I can choose to accept, I can choose to have gratitude, I can choose joy, and that's that's all I got. What else do I got?

SPEAKER_01 34:27

You know, no, you said it, you know, and I not to we're not minimizing tragedy, but how you how you respond is a choice, and I'm not saying like why do bad things happen is the wrong question, because I think it's a question we're always gonna ask, right? Yeah, but my hope would be that very quickly, you know, the answer to that question for you would be I don't know, but I I want to understand God more, I want to be closer to God, I want to lean on God to have God help me through this, right? Um, I want to learn who He is more. I think that's where the peace and joy is, you know, when you can get there.

SPEAKER_02 35:15

I I think that there is no peace and joy swimming uphill, you know, or or ice skating uphill. The a lack of acceptance of what is going to be mind-numbingly insane. Um, you know, there shouldn't be travesty or crisis. Sorry, man. I I wish I had better news for you, right? But this is just the this is just the way it is, and I'm not speaking to you from a place of distance. I'm I'm speaking to you from a place of like personal experience. A lot of our episodes are curious, but this one is the faith one. I can't explain it. Yeah, you just gotta believe that's the end of it.

SPEAKER_01 35:57

Yeah, what a uh great conversation, Larry. Um, hope it was mean it was meaningful for for folks. Um, I do want to take care of a little business before we sign off, and just to let people know hey, if you go to the description of the show, go to the very end, there's a little link there. And I forget what it says, but basically you can text us, you can click on that link and you can contact us, and you have a choice. You can text us or you can leave a voicemail, which is kind of cool. Love it, and uh yeah, so we'd love to hear from you. Um, reactions to the show, uh, questions, um, places where you disagree with us, places where you're curious, whatever. Um, would love to hear from you and uh help us help us uh just make this the best show for you possible. So uh with that, thanks for the engaging conversation, my friend. Always for your vulnerability and authenticity. Um, peace out, have an awesome um remaining uh day and weekend.

SPEAKER_02 37:06

Take care, brother.

SPEAKER_01 37:07

You too. Hey, thanks for hanging out with us. Wherever you are with faith, whether it's curious, skeptical, or just tired, we're glad you're here. And if this stirred up thoughts or questions, don't rush past them. Just sit with them. We'll keep the conversation going.