Turns Out, There's a Free Lunch

We grew up believing love gets earned.  Grades, chores, being good enough. So when someone tells you this one's free - no strings, no ledger, no catching up required - your gut reaction probably isn't relief. It's suspicion.

This week, Jim and Larry sit with the idea that gets said in church more than it actually gets believed: grace alone. Not grace plus effort. Not a reward for behaving. Just grace.

We also don't dodge the obvious pushback: if it's really free, doesn't that just mean you can do whatever you want? We answer that one honestly, not tidily.

And we land somewhere we think is worth sitting with; grace isn't a hack.  It's not a technique. It's merely a different foundation to slip and fall on. One that doesn't require you to make it right up before you're welcomed back.

https://faithcurious.buzzsprout.com/2569002

You Tube:  https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6LMmRuPXqtRFaYp8JuA7Wg

Reach Jim & Larry at faithcuriouspodcast@gmail.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:15

Hey everyone, welcome to Faith Curious. So, what makes this conversation about Faith different? Hey, we're just two guys with no hidden agenda. What you see is what you get.

SPEAKER_00 0:27

It is a brand new day. Welcome to Faith Curious Nation. Thank you so much for joining us today. Uh, I am Larry Horton. I'm joined by my co-host, Jim McCaulay. Say hi, my friend.

SPEAKER_02 0:42

Hi, my friend. I do whatever Larry tells me to do. Oh, hey, hey, hey, everyone. What's happening? Jimmy Mack here from Phoenix, Arizona. Good to be with you.

SPEAKER_00 0:52

We're so glad that you joined us today. I we hope that you're curious. We hope that you're doubting. We hope that you're questioning. We hope that on this journey in faith, you're uh enjoying this conversation that we're about to have because we're we're curious too. We got some questions, and uh hopefully we can answer some for you today. How are you doing, my friend?

SPEAKER_02 1:10

Uh that was almost like a rap. Like would you that you were almost rapping? I got rhythm. I got rhythm. It's not quite non-white rhythm, but I mean I'm doing pretty good. Well, you're non-white, so you can have you can have non-white rhythm. It's definitely from my mom's side for sure.

SPEAKER_03 1:27

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:29

I work out of this gym, Black Steel Fitness. And this is only relevant to the story that I say this that the guy that owns is black, three of the trainers are black, like, but I love this place. Great guys, right? Um, and you it's it's like walking into a freaking barber shop, man, like just uh joking, you know, having fun, but there's always a uh, you know, sometimes sometimes like there's music on the radio, sometimes something will come up and you know, rhythm comes up. And I'm there's a bunch of white guys there too, right? But you know, it's always the no, I got no rhythm, man. Like I like you know, there's there's you're the example, yeah, yeah. Because they'll they'll talk about dancing or you know, do whatever, and I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. Not here. Jimmy, Jimmy, Jimmy don't have rhythm.

SPEAKER_00 2:19

Right. We can count reps, and that's about as good as it gets. Exactly. Exactly. Fair, fair. Where do you where to stay in your lane? I dig it.

SPEAKER_02 2:29

Uh what was I gonna ask you? Uh, did you get into the world cup?

SPEAKER_00 2:34

I am a massive Ted Lasso fan. I do not watch the World Cup, not into the the the football, the soccer football.

SPEAKER_02 2:42

Uh well, is it just the name? Like if it would like if if that like or you don't like the game.

SPEAKER_00 2:48

Uh no, I I I appreciate soccer, right? I I appreciate all sports. I'm a fan of some pretty unique sports like uh Australian rules football, but it but the soccer thing, it's hard to come by for me. Now, strangely, and I and I think this is having to do with just American dominance, but women's Olympic soccer, because we are so good, I'm tuned in on that. I want us to win the gold medal.

SPEAKER_02 3:14

See, I'm the same. I will I will watch women's soccer. And not I I watched I watched the very end of the US game when they lost. Like, that's the only World Cup that I saw. Now, I'm like, I have no issue with soccer, right? Um, yeah, I think I think the passion of the countries and the fans is unique and really cool. Undeniable, honestly, really cool. Um, but I didn't want to get sucked into like all of a sudden I gotta watch this hour and a half or two hour whatever game, you know, every other day of the week. Like all of a sudden, you know, it's kind of like listen, I want my Cubs to be in the World Series, but when they're in it, or even the playoffs, man, it's a commitment. Like, you know, it's a commitment.

SPEAKER_00 4:07

Yeah, and and I also feel like they were kind of forcing it on me. I I felt a little like almost like a political ad, you know, like I'm in a gas station and I'm getting uh, you know, I'm I'm I'm getting a drink or something like that. And then they had World Cup shirts there. And I'm thinking to myself, wow, is is this really your target audience? Are you just trying to really just just have this permeate everything that I do just because it happens to be on our soil? Yeah, that our guys were gonna like no pun intended, just they were gonna drop the ball, they were not gonna do well. And so I'm like, I you know, I get what you're trying to do. You're trying to make a buck, but uh I'm not I don't sure it's there.

SPEAKER_02 4:47

I will say, like, I enjoy the athleticism. Um, like they're impressive. What they do on the pitch, if I could use that term.

SPEAKER_00 4:57

Oh, there you go. Nice, nice work, nice work.

SPEAKER_02 5:00

Uh well, what they do with their feet uh is is insane. It really is insane. But come on, man. Like, I guess you can say the same thing about hockey though. Like, I don't want to, I don't want to watch a 2-1 game or a 1-0 game, or I I just you know, like, like why not let these guys run all that? Like, why do we have off sides? Just let them freaking run, man. Like, let's have a 15 to 14 game. I might watch it. Well, and the drama, like you had the semifinals with uh Spain and France, like that drama, or I'm sorry, Argentina and England. Like, oh, yeah, yeah. Scoring the two goals, like, like, all right, I appreciate that from a competitive standpoint. Um, and the world is going nuts. My daughter's out in New York, like my daughter is like, you know, going to all the soccer games, and you know, um, like the world is nuts about it. I get it, I don't have any problem with it. Just not me.

SPEAKER_00 5:57

Yeah, they were saying some of those tickets are going for like a thousand bucks for some nosebleeds.

SPEAKER_02 6:01

Oh, well, I was like, actually, a buddy from Black Steel Fitness. They went to a game. Now, this is interesting. Were they they were in Canada, in Toronto or Ontario or something like that? I don't forget where. One of those Vancouver, maybe. Um, anyway, goes to a game, get great seats. Like he showed me pictures, you know, he's like, I don't know, first row or something, you know, like he's like it was unbelievable. He said, and they paid I think 2400 bucks for the tickets, but he said it was by far the coolest sporting event he's ever been to. But it got me thinking, um just about sports in general, and you know, and and so our episode today is on grace, right? And and grace and what does it even mean? How does it work? You know, again, it's a thing where people can look at Christianity and be like, well, hey, what's with the grace thing, man? You know, yeah, yeah. But I start I just I start thinking about culture, right? And like my brain's on sports, and you know, you have in every sport, there's free stuff. You got your free kicks, you got your free throws, you know, you got a free base in baseball. You can become a free agent. Um, you play Monopoly. What do you got? Free parking. You got free parking, you got buy one, get one, get one free. You have the economy, you got free trade, we have free speech. You're a teacher and you give your kids some free time. Uh, you know, uh there's no such thing as a free lunch, like it's everywhere, it's everywhere, and that's just I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 7:47

My curiosity was like well, getting something free, but is it free? That's the question, right? There's no such thing as a free lunch, like you just talked about. You you you go to the booth that's uh you know at the the the open market, and it's uh they're giving away the t-shirt, right? They're not giving it away. It's it's their advertising, they want you to have an engaged conversation, give me your email so I can hit you back later. It it's not a free t-shirt, you know. What and that's then ends that that enters in skepticism. Am I really getting something for nothing?

SPEAKER_02 8:25

But then you have those situations where you know it is free, right? Like you're walking through Costco and you get a little little free taste. Now you have to have some self-discipline and not buy some stuff you don't want to buy or what weren't going to buy anyway. Yeah, those are but there is a little bit there, like, you know what? I know this is free, right? I got they can't get me. If I if it's not free, it's on me, right?

SPEAKER_00 8:50

It what's also funny, and I don't know if you're like this, but sometimes I feel guilty about taking something for free.

SPEAKER_02 8:57

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 8:58

Like, well, if I take that, you're gonna want me to buy something, so I need to kind of I need to do my part, right? I can't just take, I can't just be selfish right there.

SPEAKER_02 9:10

Right, right, right, right. But I agree with you, you know, someone's so I'm standing in line at a right at a restaurant, like not fast food, but you know, like at a counter getting some food, and this gal right in front of me, like she's paying for her stuff, and she turns around and she pays for my stuff. Like, I don't know. Never met her. You didn't know who she was, never met her, and like that felt great. Like, I I had gratitude about that free thing, right?

SPEAKER_00 9:44

Um, was there a hint of skepticism at all in your in your response to that act?

SPEAKER_02 9:51

Uh initially, I'm like, what's going on here? Like, why are you like, why are you doing this? You know, um, but that instantly turned to gratitude, like, well, that was really cool. That, you know, that was a nice gesture that made me feel good, right? Um, but then there's there's all kinds of free, quote unquote, free offerings that I know aren't free, they're not free. Like we live in a capitalist society, and and I'm sorry, free doesn't work unless free gets me to spend some money somewhere else, right?

SPEAKER_00 10:26

Like, and the true free, like is it truly free? Is it and there's so much doubt there because it has just been kind of this rug pulled out from underneath us, yeah, setting it up as one thing, and so then we that's where on the other side of that it feels like okay, if I earn XYZ, because I did XYZ to get this or that, that that feels just there's justice there.

SPEAKER_02 10:57

Well, it's how it's how this society works, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:00

Well, and the transaction, yeah, they're they're okay. I gave you this, you give me that, boom, which is why the Grace thing is so hard to wrap your brain around. We walk around thinking there's a cost to everything, and because largely there is in our society, uh, everything, and and I think not our society, I think generally in society, and I you know, obviously American culture, but I think this is this is global. Okay, so I'm gonna go into this story about when I was working for the department.

SPEAKER_02 11:39

We that's the police department, uh everyone.

SPEAKER_00 11:42

Right. When I was working for the police department back in Phoenix, I was Larry was a po po. He was a po po. Five oh, five-ho. I was part of the employment service bureau, and we were doing the hiring and the firing. And it, you know, a lot had changed, but it was it was fascinating because it's like an 11-step process to get hired through the police department, which includes like physical fitness tests and psychological examinations. But uh, like one of the first steps is a written test, and or at least it was. I mean, I've been out of the game for for a decade. So it you know, it used to be a written test and an application that you filled out. The application, I mean, it went over the entire timeline of your life. I needed two things. I needed a consistent timeline that had no breaks, right? Like, where were you in the foreign legion here? Were you in prison? What's going on? Why is this massive whole? And the other thing was behavior. It was, hey, um, have you done it? Have you done this? Have you done any drugs? Have you gotten any tickets? Have you gotten any DUIs? Have you, you know, been arrested for anything? XYZ? Have you been a squeaky clean person who has just never done anything in their entire lives? Is is just what have you done? What is your track record? Have you done these things wrong? And it wasn't, and they weren't looking for perfection, which I thought was hilarious because it, you know, a lot of folks approached us and they just thought they had to be squeaky clean. And we allowed for, you know, hey, you end up using marijuana. Okay, was it an experiment? Were you trying it out? Or was it pretty much every day for the entire month of your sophomore year in college? Like you're like, okay, the one's a one's an experiment and one's behavior, one's a pattern, and and it all is so that, right? And and they would hire at the time, they would hire one in every 10 applicants. And so it was really, I mean, it more than likely you were not going to make it through. And it was pretty intense. Pretty intense. This is our performance-based society, this is our culture. You do and you get. And that's that's kind of hard to unwind, you know, especially in something as significant as our faith. Right.

SPEAKER_02 14:01

So when this faith thing comes around and says, No, you don't have to do anything, you just get it. I think a couple things happen. Number one, you're skeptical, you know. Number two, you're scratching your head and you're like, I don't get it. Right. And and I think with that, um listen, there there's a number of different things that you could push back on on Christianity that we've talked about, right? And that's the low-hanging fruit. This grace thing that's out there that I don't understand, I might I'm probably not gonna push back on it because like I got other things I'm gonna push back on. Like, right. I don't need to push back on this thing I don't understand, and I don't need to understand it, but I know it's out there and it doesn't make sense to me.

SPEAKER_00 14:54

Well, and and okay, telling on myself again, I I remember when I was a kid going to confession, the sacrament of confession in the Catholic faith.

SPEAKER_01 15:07

Bless me, Father, for I have sinned.

SPEAKER_00 15:08

My last confession was six months ago, and then you would divulge X, Y, or Z, you know, I cheated on this test in fifth grade. Okay, you know, go say 10 Hail Marys, right? You do the transaction, do the transaction, earn back the will of God or or the good, the good graces, right? And pound it into my head, right? And to this day, let's be honest, I it that still lingers, that's still there in the in the background because it's just uh like it's I I'm a skeptic. You're you're telling me that you just love me for me, who I am, all the warts, and it's and I don't do anything to get that.

SPEAKER_02 16:00

Yeah, it doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense, right now, like it makes no it makes no sense, especially aligning it with how we walk through our every single day on this uh planet Earth now, but does make sense, and something that you you and I have been beating the drum on through this entire process is you know, we're just we're so failed, we're so fallible.

SPEAKER_00 16:26

So it does make sense that self-reliance and earning good would be so finite and just such a such a uh a human thing. It does make sense that in a divine way our complete and utter reliance on on our higher power, on God, on our faith, that that would transcend our imperfection, right?

SPEAKER_02 16:55

100%, but we should have to do something to get that based on our understanding of just what it means to live in the world.

SPEAKER_00 17:08

It is absolutely difficult for me today in this moment, and I would I would I would guess you were in the same situation because the word deserve pops up, right? This person doesn't deserve grace. This this child molester doesn't deserve this prisoner, this this uh uh non-Christian over here, or you know, this person who just uh is a terrorist, like all these bad people in the world, and then now now you're on the continuum, right? Okay, and it's easy over here, extreme bad. All right, these are criminals, these are like dregs of society. We we judge them and we tell them they're horrible. Well, then you know, but it is a continuum, it's not a it's not a uh an either or now now okay. What is good?

SPEAKER_02 17:58

Where's the line?

SPEAKER_00 18:00

Where's the line that you can't cross? How is it that you deserve it or I don't? If we're two people who are air quotes good in society, right, right, right.

SPEAKER_02 18:10

And you know, the question is like I have conversations with with friends or whatever, or you know, like this is a common one where you just hear people, oh, you know, I don't really believe in God or faith or whatever. Um you know, I believe, and you know, to be fair, I think I've probably said this at a point in my life, right? You know what? I don't know what I believe. I'm just gonna lead a good life. Um I just want to be a good person. I want to be a good person. I want to be a good person, which is great. We should all strive to be good people, right? Right. Just because we have grace doesn't mean I have to stop trying to be a good person. I I you know, I should I should try to be a good person. I'm in any way, either way, but I should strive to be a good person, right? Um but the question is like really truly, what's good enough? Okay, here's an example. Larry and I, Larry and I are two, let's just say identical people. We don't even know each other, right? But we've lived kind of identical lives and we're the same age, we're both married, we both have kids, we have a job, we make about the same money, we give the same to our church, we serve the same out, like we do all the stuff the same, unbeknownst to each other, right? But Larry gives 10 and I give three percent. Is is that the thing that makes him good enough? And I'm not good enough, or am I still good enough? Right, like right, like you know, like and who defines that? Who I define it like if if that's how I'm if that's my reality, I'm defining it for myself, and it doesn't mean that I'm not being the best person I can be. Maybe I am, right? But I have I'm making up how good I have to be. Like I'm just I'm just throwing a dart at the wall and saying, I I think I need to be, you know what, I just need to be better than this guy. I just yeah, that's going to be a little bit better than this guy over here, you right, right, right. And listen, you can live that way and kind of not think about it, and you're fine. But if you really truly think about it, like just what's good enough? And you can't answer it. You can you can go out and live in the world and continue to be good and and do good things and and help other people, awesome, right? Does that mean you're going to heaven?

SPEAKER_00 20:44

Well, it does mean you're constantly, persistently trapped by comparison. Yeah, with the lack of grace, you are trapped by comparison. You are in a you are in a the prison cell of comparison. Right.

SPEAKER_02 21:00

Like what we're saying is we're not used to grace, but grace is 100% Christianity. Like, like you don't you don't have to do anything to earn your way in God's favor.

SPEAKER_00 21:21

Not which and it kind of harkens back to some of our early episodes. It is absolutely truly Christ alone, Christ alone, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:30

And you know, if you're out there and you're a skeptic, right now you probably have a hundred questions, right? Like as you should, as you should, as you should.

SPEAKER_00 21:42

Well, when did you first hear, or not necessarily when, but when when you were first introduced to this whole concept of grace, because you grew up Catholic like I did.

SPEAKER_02 21:52

I I don't I didn't know anything about grace, like I yeah. I I I knew these are the things you were supposed to do, you're supposed To go to church, you know, there's a God, um, you know, the 10 commandments, you know, don't do these 10 things. And I guess if I'm doing the math, I'll don't do those 10 things. And I guess I'm good or I'm pleasing to God, you know. Um, and then I guess that means I'm gonna go to heaven unless there's this other thing, and I end up in purgatory, like then. I gotta, I gotta do some time there. Like, like I it grace meant nothing to me.

SPEAKER_00 22:33

Yeah, and it and it's still this is what I think is just so frustrating about our faith, our our religion. The church of man really is a difficult time with the grace thing.

SPEAKER_02 22:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:47

Were you like me where because of the performance-based religious pressure, you kind of had to show up on Sundays looking really good?

SPEAKER_02 23:01

There were certain clothes that you wore, right? You were on time, you sat down, you know. Um, you stood up when you're supposed to stand, you know. Um you recited the things that when you were, you know, you're you were it was just felt you you were supposed to do these things, um, you know, as as part of what it meant to be a quote unquote good whatever.

SPEAKER_00 23:27

Were you allowed to have shame?

SPEAKER_02 23:29

Shame wasn't something that we talked about.

SPEAKER_00 23:31

I didn't even know about shame. So there it is. I mean, you just dropped a bomb right there. You're you not only are you not allowed to talk about it, I mean, there's just a distance between your authenticity, and I think that's what grace gives us. And I think that's that's what blows your mind is like, okay, if you are given grace, right? Aren't you given the ability to be imperfect? Hence, and therefore authentic and real, right? Because growing up, I had to look really good, and it felt so fake because when I got home, it was not awesome, right? When I got home, the imperfection just didn't reconcile. I was like, holy cow! But if it's performance-based, then yeah, that that that jives. That's where the grace thing really kind of throws you off. But at the same time, the gift of that is that I get to connect with you in our jacked-up in this, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:34

And I mean, is uh you know, is Christianity the only religion that has this idea of grace? No, there are there are others, but Christianity is, you know, like I think more than any other faith leads with grace. It so it's not, I mean, we're talking about grace and how does it fit in and what does it do, etc. But the reality is like in Christianity, grace is the headline, right? That's the title of the art. That's everything is grace. Christianity leaves with it, you know, loud, right? Like almost nothing else matters, you know, other than me knowing that there's nothing I can do, I don't have to be good enough, right? Um to uh have favor in God's eyes. You know, I we I always struggle with that because the reality is there is one thing I have to do, and that's accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior, right?

SPEAKER_00 25:49

Right, right. I think what's fascinating too is if you and I and this is kind of similar to what I said earlier, if you don't have your your brain wrapped around this and your faith, you kind of don't have it at all, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:06

But you know, what once my heart has committed to okay, Jesus is leading my life, you're surrendering your will. I yes, and I there is nothing I have to do to maintain that.

SPEAKER_00 26:24

You don't deserve it, I'm in, and and that's a mind job, yeah. That's but it's also in no uncertain terms throughout the book, you know.

SPEAKER_02 26:36

Well, yeah, I you know it's so funny how things work because I am in Ephesians right now. I literally just read Ephesians 2 the other day, right?

SPEAKER_00 26:45

Oh, check it.

SPEAKER_02 26:46

And Ephesians is it's a letter written by the apostle Paul to the Ephesians to the Church of Ephesus. Uh Ephesus, thank you. I knew it wasn't the Ephesian church, the Church of Ephesus, thank you. Um, and this is in Ephesians 2, 8.9. This is what Paul says for it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast. So that when I say Christianity leads with it, like you know, boom. You this isn't nothing to do with you, and you can't boast about how good you are, you know. I don't care if it's about your tithing or your service or going to church or you know, helping the old lady next door cut her grass, you know, like all that is cool, doesn't get you to heaven, right? Doesn't get you to heaven. You can't earn your way, you can't buy in.

SPEAKER_00 27:45

Cannot, you can't buy in, can't and that we know what else that says? You can't control it, right? That is what really bothers folks. That that is what bothers them to their core. What do you mean? I can't control my destiny, and that that that bothers people. That bothers me. It bothers me. That means that I truly have to just give it up. I have no control, and that feels a little helpless.

SPEAKER_02 28:22

That feels a little uh not a little helpless, that feels helpless, like yeah, it's just like floating out in the middle of nowhere. Well, and I I think that's our constant fight, right? Is surrender and and trusting that God's got me and I don't have to figure everything out now. You know, God expects me to take action, like the boat, the guy in the roof, right? With the in the floods, you know, when everyone was coming to try to save him. Yeah, dummy. Like I still I still need your participation on that roof. Okay, actively involved, amen. Yeah, but so does that does this all mean okay? So you don't have to do anything to get in, right? Does that mean I can do anything then? Like I can why do I license?

SPEAKER_00 29:09

Why do I even be a total jack off?

SPEAKER_02 29:12

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:13

I I'm in. That means you can just do whatever you want, and and you're still gonna be given the grace.

SPEAKER_02 29:20

That's what's different about grace is so does it mean that I could just sin all the time? You're you're going to sin because you're human. Okay, right. Right? We're not sinners, but we're imperfect people, right? That um, so to me, this idea of grace is um it means that once I've accepted Jesus, I have this grace, right? That that cannot, it is not going away, right? And when I trip up, when I quote unquote sin, um it just gives me something to fall on that's different than oh, now you gotta earn your way back. It's not that I fall on something that says, All right, well, you got grace, you know, you're still welcome here, you know. Well, you you don't have you don't have to go do a, b, and c and d to get back. No, like you're still here and you're gonna fall again. Just keep getting up and keep knowing that I love you and I always will, and that's never gonna change, and I can't wait to see it.

SPEAKER_00 30:38

I can almost feel our listener suspicion through this. I mean, like it's this is where I I think if I'm a listener and I'm and I'm really kind of wrapping my brain around this concept that we're talking about, it just doesn't jive, right? And I'm back to the control, I'm back to the earning, I'm back to like, no, I don't buy and then deserving, the deserving, really. Like, I need to be a good person in order to do this.

SPEAKER_02 31:07

But what would what would you rather have?

SPEAKER_00 31:10

Right. Well, uh, I mean, it and then wouldn't you wouldn't you rather get the free lunch? And I think the the the lack of reconciliation comes, okay. Well, and here I am on my side of the street, and I'm doing everything air quotes right, yeah. And this addict over here, or this guy who's who's you know burglarizing or something, or you know, you're swindling money, or you're just a freaking piece of crap, right? You're telling me this guy over here also gets the free pass, and that that kind of pisses me off a little bit, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:47

There's the where's the justice and and but but what justice are we looking at, right? Where's my justice? I'm in. I don't deserve it either. Why am I worried about someone else's justice? You know, there's a there's a parable. Um, oh, the parable of the workers in the vineyard. Okay, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:09

Talk to me.

SPEAKER_02 32:10

It's in Matthew 20, 1 through 16, and it's exactly what you're talking about, right? This guy is uh owns a vineyard and he hires people, you know. Think of think of the dude pulling up to Home Depot and you know, bringing a bunch of workers out to his job site, right? Right, that's what he's doing. He's he's hiring people throughout the day, you know, some at eight o'clock in the morning, some at 10 a.m., some at noon, some at two, some at four, right? And he shuts the thing down at six, and then he goes to pay everyone. And the guys that got there at I'm gonna use American terms because it's easy, right? Yeah, amen, amen. Like the guy who showed up at 8 a.m. gets 10 bucks. The guy who showed up at 4 p.m. gets 10 bucks. Outrage. Outrage. Outrage. But again, this is a parable, so this is Jesus teaching, saying, hey man, it doesn't matter when you accept me. Because hey, we all got different stories, we all got different stuff, right? What matters is that you accept me, and whatever you do, you're in, and that can't be taken away.

SPEAKER_00 33:31

Yeah, yeah, and there is not a love, I think, that exists in in our on this plane of earth in in this universe that we can necessarily hold up and use as an example, other than this, like that's a love, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:50

Am I pissed off? I'm a guy that showed up at eight and you showed up at four. Am I pissed off about that? Yeah, probably, right? Rightfully so, probably. I don't know about yeah, maybe rightfully so. Um, but it depends on how you look at it, right? Like, why am I worried about how why am I worried about you and the 10 bucks that you put in your wallet? Like, what uh because I deserve, I deserve more than you, and that's that's what Jesus is trying to do is dispel that whole thinking. No, first of all, none of you deserve any of this, like amen. Yeah, right. You don't deserve, you don't deserve to get to heaven, right? You also don't deserve to be shut out. Accept me and you're in, and just worry about you, just worry about your 10 bucks.

SPEAKER_00 34:45

And it is so rife throughout the New Testament. What I think is hilarious is not only are we relinquishing control, we're also relinquishing our definition of fairness. Okay, I define fairness. No, you don't, cat right. Guess who defines fairness? The guy who created fairness, yeah, and and the guy who created control. We don't have anything, we don't have anything. How what is bigger? The amount you don't know or the amount you can't control. I don't know. I don't know the answer to that question, and it is rife that so here's another parable. Everybody knows about the prodigal son, everybody's heard about the prodigal son, and I think what's hilarious about the prodigal son is not necessarily the story. When and so let me let me kind of ref give us a little reference here. In the big book, this is actually uh one of the four gospels, gospel of Luke, and and Jesus is telling the the uh a story, a parable in a teaching way. Uh, chapter 15, it you know, it's it's the parable of the prodigal son, the parable of the lost son. You know, the one son goes out, completely rebels against his family, takes his inheritance, blows it, thinks he's just living for himself. He ends up just just blowing it completely to the point where he loses everything gambling, loose living, blah blah blah. He's in a he's in a trough with some pigs, eating trying to trying to fight pigs for food because he's so downtrodden. He's like, you know what? I need to go back to the hizzo. So he goes back to his family. His father is waiting for him every day that he's gone, sees his son coming up the road, goes ballistic, so happy, so just beside himself with love and happiness that his son has returned, despite the betrayal, despite how poorly he was treated, despite his abandonment. Meanwhile, the other son that the father has, the brother of this of this prodigal son, he's stayed by his father's side the entire time. He's worked, he's he's been with the family, he's done the good thing, he's been the good son, right? He's earned his right, supposedly, to be there. And this is where I am, because I'm thinking to myself, where's the justice? This guy goes out and lives a horrendous life and comes back, and you're welcoming him with open, you're you're actually taking some of our prized possessions, the fatted calf and and what have you. And we're having a big party for this guy who just turned his back on you. Meanwhile, I've been here the entire where's the fairness. I and and here's where God's like, yeah, Jesus says, Listen, it's not for you to rely on yourself and your works, it's for you to believe in me. I'm running the show here, and guess what? You return to me after you jack yourself up, you live a jacked up life. Welcome, open arms. Congratulations. You get the gift of grace just like you did over here. You didn't earn it, I'm the one who's giving it to you. And I think that is the little crux because I think everybody looks at the prodigal son in his return and like wants to take that as a freebie, but it's really you got to focus on the guy who's been around for a while and and thinks this is what fairness is, and how nope, uh, he has to relinquish control, he has to relinquish the fairness definition, and that's run by this guy, and that is where we really kind of get what doesn't make any sense.

SPEAKER_02 38:31

Well, and he was following the rules, right? He was following the rules, yeah, you know, to get some to get his place, right? Doesn't work that way, doesn't work that way, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:44

And that that'll screw you up. That'll I and I really want to go back to okay. So, what is the gift of that besides the fact that we have salvation we don't have to earn? The gift of that is, and this is where I think is that I really want to hit this. Then you can be jacked up with each other on our level, you to me, me to you, you to whoever else is next to you in your family, in your in your community, in your fraternity, in your brotherhood. Be jacked.

SPEAKER_02 39:17

What does that mean?

SPEAKER_00 39:19

Don't put on a face, a performing face that says I have to earn X, Y, and Z. Instead, just be real with me, man. Be real with me. Take the mask off and show me your true colors, so that I can say, Yeah, it's not that you're different or wrong or worse, it's that I'm right there with you. Right.

SPEAKER_02 39:45

I'm just different, wrong, and worse in a different way, in my own way.

SPEAKER_00 39:49

Oh, but you're uh you're a professional athlete, you're a multimillionaire, you're you know, you you've got the perfect family. No, no, you're all just human putting your pants on one leg at a time, like the rest of us, and in as much need of God's grace as the next person, you know. This guy's an addict over here, you know. He just got done, he's he's got 10 days sober, deserves it as much as you, right? No difference. That's that's a butt. That's that's hard to come by right there.

SPEAKER_02 40:25

Yeah, I'm just thinking of uh this whole concept, obviously of grace that we're talking about, right? Um, we're also talking about this idea of like it's so easy for us to pay attention and worry about everyone else, right? And this isn't this isn't fair, this isn't fair because this guy got 10 bucks and he only worked an hour. This isn't fair because you know, younger son got to go blow his inheritance and left and came back, and you just accept him. I've been here the whole time. It's not fair, right? So to me, like that's another layer of this, right? There's the grace piece, and then it's our an I don't know, like need to always compare ourselves, right? Uh, and I think we do it it all over the place, but in John 21, 21, 22. So I don't know if this is when Jesus resurrected and came back and was with the disciples. I'm not entirely sure, but he's he's walking with them and he's talking to Peter, and um Pete and he's talking about like Jesus is make made a reference about someone's life and the fact that they're gonna live, you know, and for a long time or something like that, right? Okay, so Jesus had this conversation, and Peter's like, I cool, but hey, what's gonna happen to John? Jesus says, If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me, right? And and so Jesus here is telling us, so worry about yourself, right? Stay in your lane, and these disciples have been with him for three years, and and they still they still don't get it, they still struggle with I think the idea of grace and the idea of comparing, right? So, all that to say, like, man, if the disciples that were with him for three years, it was hard for them to get, yeah, it's gonna be hard for us to get.

SPEAKER_00 42:37

Home run hit right there. Home run hit. But which is kind of a theme of our entire podcast is like, listen, this is a journey, you're not gonna just get this. We're still figuring it out.

SPEAKER_02 42:52

In in complete transparency, right? We talk about reading the Bible, and I've read the Bible, you know, but I'm I'm not a Bible scholar, but we're sitting here having this conversation, and I had done a fair amount of prep work for this episode, right? Um, but we're having this conversation, and in my head, I'm like, there's a story about Jesus and the disciples. Where is it? What is it about? And so I looked it up, and there it was. Now, I'm not saying yay, Jim, but I'm saying because I've read the Bible, you know, this is an example of where it's helped me understand my faith, right? Because we're having this conversation, and I'm like, I know it's in there, and I find it like, yeah, that's it. Like, so what I'm trying to say is like it often doesn't happen that just get a real life example of hey, how these things benefit us, but that just being in the word over the years benefited me here, and hopefully, this episode, you know, because I can add something to. It. Um, and that's we say read the Bible, and this is an example of why.

SPEAKER_00 44:06

In the constant relationship, in your back and forth, in your active pursuit, and look, it's coming around, it's coming around again.

SPEAKER_02 44:14

Yeah, just you know, because we have conversations all the time. And I read that, Larry. I remember when I read it and I was questioning, huh, what's going on here? Right? That might have been a year ago, might have been two years ago. I don't know, right?

SPEAKER_03 44:28

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:30

And so if I'm in the word, I allow these moments to happen. They may or may not, but I allow them to.

SPEAKER_00 44:38

This conversation, this episode, I mean, once again, in the active pursuit of our faith, in the curiosity of like, what is this all about? Man, I mean, could not could not put an exclamation point or a massive bookmark in this, like, hey, you might not have seen it this way. But hopefully, this conversation has kind of opened your eyes to uh like this is a concept, man. And you might not think about this every day. As a matter of fact, you're probably not because you're so performance-based and you're in your just everyday culture of American life. But guess what? This is a U-turn, this is a 90-degree like shift. Like, holy cow.

SPEAKER_02 45:24

Well, and back to these two parables, right? The these were G this these were important enough topics that Jesus taught them, okay, on two different occasions, right? He taught the pretty much the same thing on two different occasions about the idea that we can't earn it, and he knows we're going to want to earn it. Right, right. He knows we're gonna want to earn it constantly. Yeah. What's so interesting is here we have a faith that really requires one thing of you believe in Jesus. That then gives me eternal life. Okay, I don't have to worry about the afterlife. Um I'm I'm with Jesus, right? Now don't I want that to be true? Yeah. Well, don't I want like, yeah, maybe it sounds too good to be true, maybe it's too easy. I don't know, but don't I want it to be true? And I get it. It's it's it's complicated, it's hard, like you know, people struggle with it for all kinds of different reasons, but that doesn't take away the fact that it is a it is an amazing, wonderful offer that everybody has the ability to accept.

SPEAKER_00 46:57

One of the things I think that is so powerful to me, and and I really got this a lot from my from my recovery work, is to know that there is a creator, God, that made me, and that just loves his creation. And to you, listener out there, I mean, maybe you're not this isn't the self-talk that you're just you know, as you're driving in rush hour, it's constantly saying to yourself, but God loves you, man. God loves you, God loves you without you doing a thing, without you doing a thing, God loves you, and I know you want to fight it because it doesn't feel like you deserve it, but you do, man. You do, you deserve God's love. He created you and he doesn't make mistakes, and you are absolutely worth it, listener, person out there who's doubting and questioning, it's just simple, and that that's that's a nut job, right? That's crazy.

SPEAKER_02 48:07

That was beautiful. I think I think that's the perfect close to this episode. Am I wrong? I I I love our conversation, man. This that's and that's the truth, right there. God loves it, it is a truth. Yeah, even if you don't want the love, even if you reject the love, you know, you got it, even if you turn back on the love, you you can't get away from it, man. It as soon as as soon as you want to accept it, you know.

SPEAKER_00 48:31

Yeah, I love doing this, brother. Um, just grateful for the listeners out there who are who are engaging in this conversation and who hopefully got something out of this. This is valuable for me for sure, and uh just grateful for you, bro.

SPEAKER_02 48:46

So, yeah, you as well. Thank you, man. Um, peace out, everyone. Have a great week. And uh, who said there's no such thing as a free lunch? Hey, thanks for hanging out with us. Wherever you are with faith, whether it's curious, skeptical, or just tired, we're glad you're here. And if this stirred up thoughts or questions, don't rush past them. Just sit with them. We'll keep the conversation going.