Faith & Finances: Handle With Care!

Nobody wants to be told having money is dangerous. Especially the people who worked hard for theirs. But Jesus keeps bringing it up, again and again, and it's worth asking why. This one's not about whether you have money. It's about what money tends to do to you when you're not paying attention. Handle with care.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:15

Hey everyone, welcome to Faith Curious. So, what makes this conversation about faith different? Hey, we're just two guys with no hidden agenda. What you see is what you get.

SPEAKER_01 0:27

It is a brand new day for Faith Curious Nation seekers, doubters, people who are questioning, people who are curious about their faith. My name is Larry Horton. Welcome to Faith Curious Podcast. Uh with my my brother Jim, how are you doing?

SPEAKER_02 0:42

I'm good, uh Lawrence. Uh James McCauley here, Phoenix, Arizona. Um 5'5, 100 and nah, let's just say 5'5.

SPEAKER_01 0:51

Yeah, in the blue corner, weighing in with the with the red and white trunks.

SPEAKER_02 0:55

That's right. Can I share just a little chuckle? Oh, yeah, I'd love to hear it.

SPEAKER_01 0:59

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00

And I I don't know why this makes me laugh so much, but there's a thing right now that that I it's a commercial that I've watched a hundred times. I actually I recorded it on my phone and sent it to someone because I think it's so funny. I laugh every single time. You might have seen this because I see it so much. I I kind of want to say that it is on like my baseball network. All right. That's when I think I see it the most.

SPEAKER_01 1:27

Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:28

It's a Liberty Mutual commercial, um, you know, with the guy in the yellow shirt and the mustache and whatever. And he and his wife are in um, they're having a teacher conference. Have you seen this?

SPEAKER_01 1:40

I have seen this one. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:43

So I don't know, I don't know if you think it's funny, but they're having the teacher conference for the listeners. And uh they're having the conference because the the little guy, I think his name is Doug, and it's little Doug or something like that, um, is in the corner and he's in trouble. And why is he in trouble? Because and he and he's dressed exactly like the dad, by the way. Still not the funniest part, right? And he's in trouble because he's acting out in school and he and he had written down insurance is dumb, right? Yes, and the teacher knows, like, hey, insurance is a big deal with this family, so she calls the parents in and they're sitting down, and she shows them what he did, and they're like, oh, they're they're aghast, right? And you see little Doug in the corner, you know, again, dressed exactly like his dad. Um, and he's got a now he's drawn a picture of the emu, and like he's put an X through it, whatever. Still not the funniest part. Funniest part to me is that the mom goes, Well, at least he spelled insurance right, and the teacher holds up the thing. This is what gets me every time. She says, He did not. Yeah. The the he I don't know why he did not is so freaking hilarious to me. I repeat it. I Sarah's sitting on the couch next to me, and she knows it's coming. I'm gonna repeat it every single time. She even sees that's great. So you seen the commercial? Is it funny to you, or am I just crazy?

SPEAKER_01 3:19

No, I I did think that was. I actually it's here's the problem with those commercials. They're just they're they're they replay them a lot, you know. Yeah, and and the insurance companies are some of the worst. They're like for the love of God, they're just getting you all the time. I mean, and and we're not shopping for them to be our sponsors, although if they wanted to sponsor the show, we're not gonna say no. I'm just putting that out there, right?

SPEAKER_02 3:41

Right, but uh, it's just one of those things to where it's like for the love, you know, you see the commercial the first time, and it's actually pretty funny, and then you see it another 50 times, and you're like, okay, all right, time to get but that's the thing to me, I've seen it a hundred times, and it's but you're okay with it, it's still as funny, and I don't know if it's the I don't know if it's the he is not like the delivery of that line, like or he did not, you know, or is it because like the mom actually is trying to bail out her son, like, well, this isn't real, at least he spelled insurance right, you know. Yeah, and it's funny because it's true, right?

SPEAKER_01 4:18

Because don't parents do that, they totally just look past all the just the jack up in this about their own kid.

SPEAKER_02 4:24

Well, especially, and she she she holds up the thing and it's spelled wrong. She's already seen it, it was already spelled wrong, like but but she's just blown right by that. Well, at least he spelled insurance right, right?

SPEAKER_01 4:36

And you know the writers are in the room going, okay, here's what we should do.

SPEAKER_02 4:38

We should have her say that insurance is spelled the right way. You know what? Yeah, and this is like so. This is how I watch stuff. There's another Liberty Mutual, you know, the Liberty Mutual football one where he's at halftime and he's and emu gets away and he's running around and Doug chasing him and he gets tackled. This is an insight into me. I watch that, and right away I'm like, all right, like, did he really get tackled here? Like, how and and if you watch it, because I've I've I've played it over a bunch of times. If you watch it right from about when he's going to get tackled, like he looks away, like so he doesn't really see the guy when he hits him. The actor does, right? Like, yeah, you would think you know, you'd be like bracing for the hit, you know. No, he completely looks away like, all right, hit me.

SPEAKER_01 5:27

Embracing the suck, right?

SPEAKER_02 5:29

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:31

So one of the things I'm really excited about talking about in this particular episode is the uh introduction of uh Faith Curious Plus, which uh is a new, it's it's a new pay subscription that we're offering for for our fans. Yeah, uh it's uh it's a dollar a day or 40 bucks a month, and then the first 400 subscribers, they're gonna get uh an autographed eight by ten of you, and then uh you know uh an unabashed, it's gonna be a 30-minute phone call directly to them to ask any questions they want. Um, so it it's that new pay subscription thing that we're talking about. Uh, we're very, very excited about just roping people in on that uh because that that's just gonna lend all kinds of our credibility and trust of the listeners that uh you know we're we're definitely doing this without any hidden agenda.

SPEAKER_02 6:22

Do I have to talk to people for a half hour?

SPEAKER_01 6:24

Well, no, I mean they it it technically in the in the in the contract, you just they call and and it goes for a half hour, whatever happens during that time. Okay, if they hang up, it's not it's okay.

SPEAKER_02 6:33

I think we might already have a trust issue. It's a dollar a day, and you said it's $40 a month.

SPEAKER_01 6:40

I was kind of hoping you wouldn't catch that.

SPEAKER_02 6:42

Yeah, I guess. Hey, I'm the guy who catches that the e that Doug gets tackled and taken away, right?

SPEAKER_01 6:53

I I don't know how you are, but I have like 20. I used to be on uh a cable thing and they charged me like 150 bucks for like 10 channels or something like that. So I'm like, oh forget you guys, and now I'm gonna I'm gonna subscribe to Disney Plus. And now I'm paying about the same amount of money for all the different subscription services that I have. Yeah, and I'm just like, holy cow! Um and now it's a thing to where I'm starting to have resentment towards those guys, and I just look at this entire subscription model and I think to myself, yeah, I get capitalism, but you I just how can I trust you guys? Like money, money is a thing, right? Money is a thing for our our culture, and and that that leaks over, that bleeds over into our spirituality, and there's there's just all kinds of issues in regards to that that can be blocks to folks who are already doubting or or they're having questions and they're and they're curious about all right, I've seen some bad stuff happen where especially churches in particular. Can I tell you a quick story? Here, here's a quick illustration. I got a my financial planner, uh, is a guy who I who I've been friends with for a while. He's he's Jewish. And I uh I was talking to him about spirituality, and he's like, Yeah, you know, I don't I don't ever go to synagogue anymore. I said, Yeah, it's like what's a what's that about? He goes, Well, all they want is my money, all they want to do is just get money out of me, and uh as a result, I'm just not interested in going there, you know. And I'm like, wow, that's that's kind of eye-opening. He goes, Yeah, we had a police chapman, uh chaplain who was a rabbi, and this guy was a former uh police volunteer, and he said, Yeah, I just I try to avoid that guy with everything I can. I go, You try to avoid the chaplain, rabbi? And he goes, Yeah, because I know what he's gonna do is he's gonna invite me back to the synagogue so he can get in my pockets. And I just thought, I'm like, wow, how messed up is that that you're really conflating, conflicting your spirituality, your faith, your religion, and your finances. And it's just, it just, man, I I I felt and I thought to myself, that's happening all over, you know?

SPEAKER_02 9:23

Yeah, and like, you know, in fairness, like we don't know if it's him or the synagogue, right? Right. Fair. But you know, um, but I think it's fair to say, I think what you're saying is like um there's a there's a there we're not short on examples of churches, pastors, institutions who clearly um it's a money grab, right?

SPEAKER_01 9:53

Which is so disappointing.

SPEAKER_02 9:55

Yeah, yeah. So so if you're you know, someone listening to this podcast and you know you're trying to understand the faith and whatever, it it's gotta be a question in the back of your mind. Like, all right, yeah, but what's the thing with the money? Like, do do do they re can I believe them? Can I trust them? Or are they really just after my money? Like that's I think that's fair, right?

SPEAKER_01 10:19

And that's something that you and I in this particular podcast are very conscientious of is self-interest and uh hidden agendas and ulterior motives, yeah. Because that's something that the only reason that you would come to listen to our podcast is to think to yourself, okay, these guys are talking authentically about something, and they don't have an intention to convert me or to tell me how to think. They don't want anything from me, right? And that's the truth, yeah, totally. But in in a situation to where we culturally especially are so, you know, we're tied to, you know, we got to put food on the table, and and you know, you got to work every day, and and they're not gonna give it to you for free. And and then you kind of tie that in with how does that how does that reconcile with faith? How does that trust come in where it's not somebody's self-interest? And then it like there's some confusion, it gets a little blurry because then even if you don't go to a church and you're thinking to yourself, okay, God is talking about giving and generosity, like, how does that reconcile? And it's a question that I think we should have a conversation about, which is why we're here. Amen. And so that's what today's topic is you know, faith and finances, faith and and money, and um the philosophy behind some of it. But at the same time, like as you're asking yourself, all right, you know, how can I how can I reconcile these two things? We're hoping to uh, you know, kind of answer some questions.

SPEAKER_02 11:59

Well, one of the things that was bouncing around my head this week as I'm thinking about this show is uh, you know, so the idea of is it a money grab and is that fair, right? And I think it's a hundred percent fair, um just because we've seen it so often. Now, you know, but then the the thing that keeps bouncing around my head is this the phrase like don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, right? Right. And I think about it like in in this scenario, um, because uh are are there some bad examples? Absolutely, but does that mean that I shouldn't give because there are some bad apples? Um but I I think you know it's bigger that phrase is bigger than just this. It's there's so many things about Christianity that we've talked about, right? Whether whether it's um whether it's money grabbing, you know, cultures or uh moral failures by church leaders, you know, like you can you can see this church leader who's supposed to be leading uh people to Christ and you know living a certain way, not perfectly, but a certain way, and then they don't, and it's real easy to throw the baby out of the bathwater, right? Um or you know, it just could be it could be Christian leaders we see out there, you know, however you define that, people that that that kind of you know put their Christianity front and center, but then you look at them and you're scratching your head like it doesn't seem like the right life to live, you know. Um but again, don't throw the baby out of the bathwater, right? Like, you know, because we we just because yeah, there's a lot of a lot of things we can question, a lot of things that we don't agree with, uh, and a lot of bad examples, but does that mean the whole thing's bad?

SPEAKER_01 13:53

Well, and and we've talked about this in previous episodes. I think with finances, it's a measurable, tangible way to really differentiate the church of man versus the church of Christ, right? And I think that this is it, you know, just like we don't applaud if there's a if there's a faith leader out there, and that faith leader is not being uh, you know, uh authentic in their relationships, uh, whether or not be marital or otherwise, we don't applaud that, and we also don't condone or or applaud somebody who's gonna say one thing over here and then take your money and use it for something that is not uh at all consistent with the mission. And so, like I and our concern, I think I'm gonna speak for you here. Our concern is that somebody would look at that and say to themselves, you know what? Um, I don't trust here, and as a result, uh I don't know if I'm really gonna pursue this avenue or or even really kind of dig into my faith, because at the end of the day, you're telling me things you want to hear or that you think I want to hear, because you want something from me. And I think that's something that we really are concerned about. I don't I don't think that a true situation where you are uh authentically following what Jesus Christ would say would ever feel like, all right, this some this person wants something from me, and that's why uh they're saying the things that they're saying.

SPEAKER_02 15:30

Well, and you know, at the end of the day, I mean let's call spade a spade, uh, you know, a church needs money to operate.

SPEAKER_01 15:39

It is a business.

SPEAKER_02 15:40

It's absolutely yeah, it's a business, it's a business. So there is a there's a line between, okay, I mean, I get it. I want to come here every week, you know. I want to experience the things that I can experience. I want to send my kid to camp. I want to, you know, come and hear this guest speaker, I want to be in a community, I want to go to a Bible study, you know what I mean? I want to do all these things. Okay, I mean, well, there certainly is a cost to that because you know, you have buildings and infrastructure and people and benefits. It it's a business, you know. But is it is it more business or more faith?

SPEAKER_00 16:17

Right.

SPEAKER_02 16:18

I think that's that's where you know that that's where it gets tricky.

SPEAKER_01 16:24

Well, and and I yeah, it does get tricky. So the the I think the question to be curious about is all right, okay, why are we even talking about generosity? Why are we even talking about giving? Like, where does that even come from?

SPEAKER_02 16:44

Well, why do we give? If you carry on what we were just talking about, what I said, well, I mean, one reason we give uh is because I I I want to be able to come here every week and I want to be able to um experience, you know, and have access to the things I want to have access to, and it takes money, so I'm sure I'm going to give for that, right? Um and the other reason, especially in this culture, I think most of us, if you are pressed on what is the thing you value most, right? No, we would say family and marriage and all those things. But I think money is money is at the top of the list, right? I mean, you know, we sell we we sacrifice things early in our careers, right? Like we travel more, we move, you know, we do these things for money. And I'm not saying everything else isn't important, but we make decisions that are about you know, climbing the ladder. Okay. So real. Most of us. Um, and then we get older and we look back and we're like, oh, you know what? I wish I I wish I wouldn't have spent so much time working or or whatever. But we we never make that decision at 30.

unknown 18:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 18:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:17

So to me, we give um because it's important that giving that Jesus is number one in our hearts. Um, and so to me, it's a um it, you know, giving is a process of prioritizing Jesus. Right? Because because if I can give generously, then truly I'm I am truly moving the priority from money to Jesus.

SPEAKER_01 18:54

I love that. I I want to I also want to qualify. I I love what you literally just said right there, because that is at the heart of it. I also want to qualify that and I want to say that it should hurt a little bit. And here's what I mean by that. If I clean out my closets and I give all that stuff to goodwill because I'm trying to make some space for some more clothes and I make a donation to goodwill, is that service? Now listen, I'm not saying that giving to goodwill is a bad thing. Uh, you know, do it. That's great. If you clean out your stuff and you give it to Salvation Army, that's fine. That's not a bad thing. But does that really move the needle to your inconvenience? Does that really move the needle to your effort right there?

SPEAKER_02 19:33

To your sacrifice, right?

SPEAKER_01 19:35

Right, to your sacrifice, giving of something and not giving it from something else, the opportunity cost of it. Yeah. And that that is it needs to hurt a little bit. And and hurt, I'm I'm just it's more a colloquialism. And what I'm saying is that if I have to get up super early in the morning to go down to you know, South Phoenix and go to a Lutheran church to be part of a of a mobile food pantry before the sun comes up, that's inconvenient. And I'm given hours of my time, effort, and energy. And and it feels significant at the end. That's me making a sacrifice for something over here. If I have to give, and I have to, let me rephrase that. If I if I choose to be generous in an area of my finances, money that I could absolutely use somewhere else, right? For cups of coffee or new tires or whatever, then that is a choice that I'm making intentionally that could go somewhere else. And I'm freely surrendering that up. I'm I'm relinquishing control there. And that is an ask, that is a faith trust journey right there in doing that.

SPEAKER_02 20:54

Yeah, and I don't, you know, so I don't think it has to hurt, okay? Um, but I think it's the rare individual who um who who gives generously and doesn't feel some sacrifice, you know, right, like because generously, generously isn't an amount, right? Like it's you know, um it's not like a hundred bucks, right? It's because if I've got twenty thousand dollars, I give a hundred, still a hundred bucks, but does that really matter to me? Right? Um so I uh I totally get what you're saying, and I get why you're kind of uh treating it gently, right? Because I I don't think the message is uh hey give to you hurt, I just think the message is it will hurt.

SPEAKER_01 21:51

Well, if you do it right, it should not be convenient.

SPEAKER_02 21:54

Well, yeah. You know, here's the thing. So if we give, and I give because I don't want money to be the number one thing in my life. Um to me it's not a start today. Jesus is the most important thing in my life. That'd be great, but I don't think it works that way. I can tell you my experience, our experience in giving, um, and it goes back how many years? Um, where you know, Sarah and I go to church and this idea of of giving 10% of your income, you know. I mean, it's a I mean it's a thing, whatever. I don't mean to like you know that this is about tidy and it's not, it's just uh we have to have that so I'm making the analogy, right? Um at that time, so that was kind of the goal, right? And at that time it's like what seems like an awful lot, right? I don't think we can do that, you know, because we have this bill and this bill and this bill and this bill. Um and so you know, we did it. We gave I don't know, percent, two percent, stuff like that, but we gave, right? We we said, you know what? We're we're stepping in and we're figuring it out, and we gave. And slowly but surely we increased that. Um, and here's the funny thing, and you know, and and and that felt good, right? It felt like I will we were um making a sacrifice and and and making a sacrifice with the intention of and money down on the party list and Jesus up, right? Like I we were giving things up. We got to a point ten percent. And uh I'm like, wait a minute, pre-tax or post tax? We were given post tax, you know, and again, like um yeah, yeah, that's a gross or net, thank you. Um we're given net, so uh so which is less, right? So we are giving, we're leaning in, but we're also still holding on to, you know, like skirting the rules, giving as you know, do what it but just kind of yet. We're not calling yet, right? Really, what at that point it's like you know what? It is so all that to say, it's a process, right? I think I think I think giving is the process of changing your heart. I would love to say uh you know, giving changes your heart on day one. If it does great, obviously be gentle with yourself and look at it as it's a process of changing your heart. So Jesus is the most important thing, and all this worldly stuff is not. It's just money happens to be the thing that you know mostly identifies worldly stuff.

SPEAKER_01 25:54

You just told us talking about intention. You did that deliberately. And like you empty your pockets and you're like, oh here we got it, thanks. And it's just accidental, or you just stumble upon uh, you know, a lottery ticket and the first time.