Faith Curious

Prayer - Does it Actually Work?

• Jim McCauley & Larry Horton • Season 1 • Episode 7

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0:00 | 40:46

Jim opens by sharing a prayer he's been praying for years — and hasn't been answered yet. No resolution, no tidy lesson. Just honesty. From there, he and Larry dig into the questions most people are afraid to ask out loud. Does prayer actually work and if so, how do you measure it?  Is it ok to be angry with God?  And what does it even look like when it's real, not performed, not rehearsed, just a person talking to God like they mean it. This episode isn't about getting prayer right. It's about showing up and starting the conversation.

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Reach Jim & Larry at faithcuriouspodcast@gmail.com


SPEAKER_01

Hey everyone, welcome to Faith Curious. So, what makes this conversation about faith different? Okay, we're just two guys with no hidden agenda. What you see is what you get.

SPEAKER_00

It is a brand new day. Faith Curious Nation, thank you so much for being here. I am Larry Horton with uh Jim McColly. Oh man, I didn't get a chance to give you the podcast extraordinaire.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I preempted the podcast Extraordinaire. And I wasn't planning on doing that, but it felt right. Hey, go for it. I live in the moment. I love that. I love that. Yeah. How you doing, man? Good, man. How you doing? How's uh oh hi oh don't you know?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, it's it's good, it's good. It's uh it's been rainy as a son of a gun here, uh, which is okay because I don't yet have my motorcycle. Uh you know, it hasn't been delivered yet.

SPEAKER_01

I thought it was supposed to arrive last week.

SPEAKER_00

Uh, it was supposed to arrive last week, and I called them in my panic and said, I don't see my motorcycle. And he said, Oh, it's in my walkie, it'll be here next week at a brown this time. So it's either today, tomorrow, or the next day. And I'm like, uh, I'm Jones and it's a it's it's messed up.

SPEAKER_01

Uh you know, I'm not, I don't want to jinx it. Sounds like you got some kind of like Ferris Bueller thing going on here, right? Like, there is there is definitely there is some dude with long hair, no helmet, in a on a back road of Kentucky, just right, you know, and now all he's trying to do is trying to figure out how to reverse the odometer so he can actually return it to you, but he hasn't figured it out.

SPEAKER_00

Right, I can just see him like doing jumps. He's on some kind of back road doing jumps.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. Uh so I know you're from Oregon, but still you haven't you haven't lived in rain in quite some time. Like coming from the desert, I tell people like when you come and live in the desert, man, like one of the biggest differences, not everything happens. Anything on your schedule happens. There's no rain out, softball games. Everything happens according to the schedule, and now you're in a completely different environment. How are you doing with it?

SPEAKER_00

It is a strange phenomenon to actually have to look at the weather on a daily basis because something might change as opposed to right uh the ease, literally, possibly the easiest job in Arizona is uh the news weather person. Uh so yeah, the easiest job in the one of the easiest jobs in the world. This is fascinating.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I joke when I look at the weather, this is this is what it is. It's 102, 101, 101, 102, 101, 101, 102. Like, like that's it.

SPEAKER_00

Well, unless you get a cold front coming in down to 99, you're getting like 98. Yeah, and that doesn't have to like a winter storm, basically. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

In in light of your uh recent transition to Ohio, um, I thought we'd do a little uh little Ohio QA and uh and see if you've uh see what kind of knowledge you have about your newfound home state. Uh you ready for that? I I hit me with a buckeye quiz. So, first of all, Larry, uh, why is Ohio nicknamed the mother of presidents? Oh, did you know Ohio was nicknamed the mother of presidents? I think a better question is, yeah, that's the better question. Is did I know? All right, well, can't do you have a guess?

SPEAKER_00

Do you want to log a guess or just me tell me just I I'm gonna say that uh several presidents' mothers live in Ohio?

SPEAKER_01

Um Ohio has produced more US presidents than any state except Virginia. Eight. Oh wow has produced eight presidents.

SPEAKER_00

Wow, yeah, wow, impressive. Yeah, that's so um I you know, like so it makes perfect sense that I'm here as well.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, maybe you're number, maybe you're number nine. Like, who who who can really say? Who can really say you could not there?

SPEAKER_00

There's not a way in the world that you could get me to take that job. No, no, not a chance.

SPEAKER_01

What summer delicacy? So we're talking about a food, was invented in Ohio, and where did the invention take place?

SPEAKER_00

Wow, I like that. Um, I'm gonna take a stab at the hot dog.

SPEAKER_01

Well, it was a summer delicacy, that's what gave it away. Uh yeah, well, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Did I get it? Well, yeah, but here it is. The hot dog was allegedly, and you're a cop, so I think allegedly fits, allegedly invented in Ohio, and you got German immigrants in Cincinnati and Frankfurt who both claim it. So we don't really know, but it, but there's uh there's a claim that the hot dog was invented in Ohio.

SPEAKER_00

And every Oktoberfest, it gets really ugly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. All right.

SPEAKER_01

Now here's one. Here's one I think you probably know because you've visited Ohio for a while. What does three-way chili consist of?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, you've got the uh the spaghetti, correct? Right, you've got the actual chili, and there's beans in it. That's the thing, okay, right? Am I with this?

SPEAKER_01

Oh so you got your you got your three, four, and five-way chili. Oh in in Ohio. The three, you're you're like two-thirds of there. Spaghetti, meat sauce, shredded cheese. That's your three-way chili.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, okay. Meat sauce.

SPEAKER_01

Now that was my nickname in high school. If you want to make it four-way, you add either kidney beans or diced onions. Not both. Either or that that's your four-way. If you want your five-way, you add both.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, wow. Okay, wow. Yeah. See, this is great. This is why this is edutainment. I mean, we're not just providing like a major podcast, but we're also providing information.

SPEAKER_01

All right, and here's here's one more. I got one more for you. The Ohio is the only, I don't know if it's only as accurate, one of the only states to not have a rectangular flag. Ah, do you know what do you know what shape the flag is in?

SPEAKER_00

It's kind of a weird triangle situation with the with the uh the end is kind of like a serpent's tongue situation.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, it you know what? You're right, it's called a swallow tail pennant shape. Oh also known, also known as a burgey.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, burgee. That's a new term. I did not know that.

SPEAKER_01

I'm gonna use that though. It it has uh its shape um it replicates some type of fish. Like that's what that so there's a a history of the history of fishing um in the state, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, see, I knew this, and this is where sports are so impressive because the reason I knew that is because of the Columbus Blue Jackets in their in their background. So yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_01

All right. Now, here's some more knowledge. So again, you know, like when you meet your neighbors, you know, you can you can throw this stuff out there. Um did on the flag, did you know the triangles represent Ohio's hills and valleys?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, naturally, yeah, makes sense.

SPEAKER_01

And the red and white stripes represent its waterways and roads. Oh, uh I wonder which one is which. See, do do you know what the letter O or the circle in the middle represents?

SPEAKER_00

The no, I was gonna call it.

SPEAKER_01

The letter O and a buckeye nut.

SPEAKER_00

Ah and and it's so because our rival obviously is the Michigan Wolverines, and you put up a Wolverine versus a poisonous nut, and it's just you know, as far as mascots go, it's just really lacking.

SPEAKER_01

Is is a is a buckeye poisonous? I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_00

I I think they they try to sell it as poison to make it tougher.

SPEAKER_01

I don't know, otherwise it's just a cashew.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, I mean, it's yeah, yeah, it's a legume. Yeah, it's it's the worst.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, good. See, now I I feel uh more more comfortable that as you're roaming the streets of the neighborhood, you know, meeting people. Um, you know, you got you got some material, you got some material, and so they can go inside and be like, what the what is up with that Larry guy?

SPEAKER_00

And his you know, strangely, nobody calls me back. I don't know what's going on with that.

SPEAKER_01

Right, right, right, right. They invited us over for three-way chili. What yeah, what is that?

SPEAKER_00

I I gotta be like, they're gonna be like, Who what? Yeah, that's funny. I did see a skyline chili restaurant.

SPEAKER_01

Ah, okay. All right, uh, but you haven't gone.

SPEAKER_00

Uh, not yet.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, chili guy, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

I don't know if I'm there. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01

I'm not a chili guy either, really. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Hit the Bob Evans, though. Hit that pretty hard.

SPEAKER_01

But I'll tell you what, the spaghetti and meat sauce, like so. Now you're really not talking about chili. I mean, you're talking about a bowl of spaghetti.

SPEAKER_00

This is this is the crux right here. I mean, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And you know what I'd do? You know what I would do? A hundred percent. I'd be like, I'm gonna take the three-way chili, no cheese. Just give me a bowl of spaghetti and meat sauce.

SPEAKER_00

Just really throw a curveball at him. Because we're contrarians. I mean, this is the way we approach life. I don't know. I can't order off a menu forgotten. I see what you're trying to push on me, and I'm gonna go this direction. Exactly. I don't I fight you. I fight you.

SPEAKER_01

So I am uh I'm sitting here. Thank you for that. Thank you for indulging uh indulging me in that.

SPEAKER_00

No, that was great, great research, too, by the way.

SPEAKER_01

Uh I'm sitting here now. Um, and I'm like, all right, how do we because we're we're really good at our segues into the show? Oh, yeah. How do we go from three-way chili or a poisonous nut to prayer? How how how do does that even work?

SPEAKER_00

So the train, yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna take a stab at this because I've been kind of working it out in my brain as we've been talking. Um and and you know, you get out there and you deal with the Wolverine is pretty pretty straightforward, right? Yeah, I don't want to be attacked by this uh very vicious rodent, but uh you know, you're out in the forest and you're foraging and you come across a poisonous nut that happens to be the state nut of uh Ohio, uh, and and you ingest it, not realizing that it's actually toxic. You know, for me, I would ask you to say a prayer for me and to say, you know, hey, listen, I hope that I don't get injured horribly. Speaking of prayer, okay, and then I would go on. Yeah, so it was horrible. It really was like an island. Uh it was like a it was like a boat adrift. It was really not good.

SPEAKER_01

You did think of it. Well, and if that happens, man, you better have that prayer in your back pocket too. Like, I like like if it happens to me and I'm eating the poisonous nut, I I should have the prayer in the back pocket. Uh, there's also something there with like there should be some kind of prayer, like, dear Lord, help me to never forage. Like, why do I want to forage? Right.

SPEAKER_00

Well, I think that's an opportunity, and I think it's been missed uh in the past. So I'm gonna go ahead and open us up with a prayer right now. Um, dear God, our Lord and Savior. Um when when the the trade deadline comes, please have the Arizona Diamondbacks be buyers and not sellers. Uh, and uh please just help us win the the the division title and uh please help that the the the Dodgers just come up with a collective team digestive worm or something. Uh and uh in in your name we pray, amen. Because that's really uh that's a legitimate prayer right there.

SPEAKER_01

No, I I um do you mind if I critique your prayer?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, please. No, I don't mind at all.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, why don't you ask for the World Series title? Like, why division title?

SPEAKER_00

I don't want to be selfish.

SPEAKER_01

Um it's a big God, Larry. It's a big, big God.

SPEAKER_00

And and we we joke, we we we laugh, but at the end of the day, I mean I think people actually look at prayer like that. And and there's always that that whole thing about uh, you know, you're praying for your team to win, and God has a lot more, you know, bigger things to bigger fish to fry than than uh so obviously uh our our topic today is prayer, and uh this is a big one. This is a big one because uh this one has a lot of really weird uh association to it, or or uh, you know, just kind of misnomers and things like that. Uh so I you know, I'm I'm curious to what your experience with prayer has been so far, and and and uh just let's kind of just kind of jump right in right there.

SPEAKER_01

Well, um yeah, thank you. Uh and listeners, thank you for indulging us um in the sh the shenanigans of Ohio and and and whatever, what else so the other things that uh that jump into our minds and we can't get rid of until we say them. Um but uh okay, so prayer. You know, we're we're on this journey of uh of just sharing right our faith with people that maybe have been hurt by faith or confused or doubt or don't know how to pursue. And you know, we're just we're just here to uh to to to help and share our experience in in the hope that that um that helps someone um you know take the next step. And it's about relationship, right? I mean, everything we're talking about is our relationship with Jesus, and prayer is a central, man, a central piece of it. Last week we talked about the Bible. This week we're going to prayer. So um I'm gonna I want to share like my prayer. It's a prayer experience in real life that's been going on with me. All right. So I I've been praying for something that and actually this same prayer. Um I won't say every morning, right? But I I try I try to pray every morning. The mornings that I pray, the same prayer for somewhere between five and ten years. Okay. Wow. Um that's amazing. I'm not gonna tell you who it's for, but I'll tell you it's someone I love more than just about anything in this world. Um, and what I'm praying for is something fairly simple, I guess you could say. Something good. Something this person wants for themselves. And it just hasn't happened yet, right? Which is why I've been praying for it for you know, five to ten years. So every time I bring it to God, um I you know, if I'm being real, like I feel hope. Like I keep praying it. Not because I'm angry that it hasn't happened or I don't, you know, I think if I just keep praying it, then it's no, I I feel hope, right? And and and saying the prayer makes me feel good. Um I don't know how God's gonna answer it, but I I believe he will. And that's like one of the tough things about prayer is we have our idea of things that should happen, and then we have you know, we have God's will, right? But that really isn't the hard part, like not knowing, because I know he will answer it. The hard part is kind of the the quiet voice in me um that shows up sometimes and says something like, Ah, this is my fault, right? Um what if my this prayer isn't being answered because of the things I did, bad choices, old behavior, you know. Um and and like hear me. I don't think I don't believe God punishes me, right? I don't believe that at all. That's not what I'm thinking. But I do believe in consequences, and consequences come in all shapes and sizes, and they don't just land on me, you know, they can land on people close to me. So I'm not saying it's my fault, but if I'm being real, I struggle with that, right? Because I somewhere inside of me, I'm like, why isn't it being answered? Um what I so what I know is you know, this thing I want for this person, it's just it's hard to see them in pain, right? Because it's not happening. So maybe for this episode, it's actually a good place to start talking about prayer, not with a success story, not with some testimony about the time God came through in a really big way, but with the years of waiting, you know, a little hope, a lot of surrender. And I've if I'm being honest, you know, some guilt I'm still working through. And yet I I couldn't imagine my life without prayer. Um, so that's where I am. And if that resonates with you, then uh I hope you stick around for the rest of the show.

SPEAKER_00

So I have some curiosity about what you said because and I'm and I'm also trying to put myself in the listener's frame as well. You you have a prayer that has gone unanswered, which is like culturally and and along our norms and mores, just this coup. Yet you said that you have hope. So that to me is a little paradoxical. You you haven't gotten the the prayer answer or even a result necessarily, yet you still have hope. So talk to me a little bit about that.

SPEAKER_01

Um, I think it's it's uh it's what we think of when we think of prayer. Like what do we expect? Okay. And I think as humans, especially if we're new believers, and we're figuring all this thing out, but even seasoned believers, we are we're human, so we have the tendency to think I know what's best for me. I could get angry, like, okay, then why isn't it being answered? But I don't think in those terms. I think in terms of, yeah, I'm human, I have needs, I have wants, I have, you know, things that I think should happen. And so I pray for them. But I also know uh maybe I'm wrong. You know, maybe God has a different plan, a better plan. Um, I mean, his plan is always good, it's always loving, it's always in my best interest. Um but I don't think in those big godly ways, right? I think in the human ways, and I want this thing to happen, so I'm gonna pray for it. And it's good, and so why isn't it happening?

SPEAKER_00

So I don't hear any anger, right? Yeah, which is strange because I think that that's a lot of what folks have experienced when they don't get the the answer to their prayer.

SPEAKER_01

But do you think anger is okay in prayer?

SPEAKER_00

Yes, but I think you know, to you can have a response that says, Yes, I'm angry that this prayer hasn't been answered, but I think it also needs to it cannot go without self-reflection to cut to be hand in hand with that anger to find out okay, why am I angry that this did not get answered? Because it so let me ask you this the the other thing I don't hear is doubt. Yeah, um, although there you did talk a little bit about, you know, maybe it's this, or maybe it's me, or maybe it's consequences, or what have you. Is that doubt?

SPEAKER_01

Um, well, it depends on what you mean by doubt. Is it is it doubt that um do I have doubt that this prayer is going to be answered in the way I want it to be? A hundred percent. Right? Um but I don't have doubt that it's going to be answered in the right way, you know, the way that the way that God needs, you know, the way that the way that God needs things to happen, right? And and in many, you know, in many, many ways, I'm not big enough uh to understand his ways most of the time.

SPEAKER_00

This I think about Evan Almighty, that movie with uh I think it's Jim Carrey. Is that the one? Is it is Evan Almighty? I was gonna say Steve Carrell, but I could be totally wrong. You know what? There's there's there's multiple ones. The one I'm thinking of was with Jim Carrey and Bruce Almighty.

SPEAKER_01

That's the one it's not Chris Rock, it's not Chris Rock.

SPEAKER_00

I know, yeah, but it there's a section in there where Bruce Almighty and he's answering all the prayers, and and it just leads into this massive anarchy because all the prayers are answered, uh in in the affirmation, and I think that is this is a massive crux, and I'm gonna make this up, and I but I don't think I'm far off. Folks can give up on the entire thing uh with the prayer thing, they can say, you know what? I get it, I get the Bible's legit, I get that this guy walked the earth, I get that he he's benevolently sacrificing himself for me, but I am not getting my prayer answered, so I'm out. And because who hasn't experienced a loss, some really significant grieving, and then turn to prayer in that moment and then just been not fulfilled, right? The unanswered prayer in that situation is enough to turn some people to the point where they'll just reject and turn their back on this entire thing, right? And I think that's where we really gotta take a look at this because, like you're talking about, I I and I love just. The zen attitude that you're bringing to that unanswered prayer, which and and first of all, let me also just say thank you for bringing that aspect to it as opposed to what you talked about in regards to some kind of win. We're starting kind of with a loss.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Well, and um so a couple things. Uh for I I had a this person knows that I'm praying this prayer, right? I mean, we've we've talked about it. Um, I've actually asked this person at some point, what would you like me to pray for? And this is, you know, um, and I got things back, but this is one of them. Um and at one point um they communicated to me that they were angry and that they had that they were um expressing that anger to God, right? So I'm I'm following up on the the the anger point, right? And I think there was uh I think there was some uh um guilt, like you know, I got angry and maybe I shouldn't have. And I I would say no, like God wants authenticity. If you're angry, he doesn't want you to fake it, he wants you to be angry, you know. If that if it's rage, like what like he wants us to be authentic, right? He wants, you know, um, and and and I think like that's really important to understand that there is, you know, Jesus in the Bible talks about prayer and how to pray and everything, and like it's like don't be a hypocrite, right? Like, don't try to use fancy words and you know say the right things and you know, um, and and and pray in a way that other people see you, so they're like, oh, look at that person, look at them praying, right? Right now, no, man, he like it's it's about relationship, it's between me and God, and whatever I'm experiencing, I should communicate.

SPEAKER_00

So the question it sounds like is why? And I think unless you have really have a hold on that, then it's it unless you ask yourself, why do I want to pray? Then it's it's almost like you're putting the cart before the horse. And here's my argument to that. What do you mean? What do you mean you put what I think a lot of folks confuse prayer with control? And I think there's there's a lot of folks out there who think to themselves, okay, I want this. And I've I've read somewhere that if you ask for it, God will give it to you.

SPEAKER_01

True.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, right. And and again, we talked about this in the last episode. You take that out of context, and it's and it seems like very uh empowering and entitling, right? Right. In the ask, why am I praying? If I'm praying so that I can control God, it ain't gonna work. And that's not a reason to pray, and that's not prayer, right? Right. And I think that's that's what we really, I mean, this so how do you answer that?

SPEAKER_01

Why do you pray?

SPEAKER_00

The reason I pray is because there's the same reason that I want my daughter to talk to me, or I want my son to talk to me, and that is because I want to know you, I want to know what my daughter needs, and if it's in my daughter's best interest, me as the parent, knowing that. All right, because I I I mean, it's as my job as a parent is not to just say yes and have all the sugar you want and please jump off of this very high thing at the risk of breaking your leg. No, no, no. I don't, I don't consent, right? I will in some cases, if it is good for you, but there's a lot of no happening. The the same reason that I want my daughter to talk to me, I think is the same reason that uh I uh why do I want to pray? Because I want to engage with my higher power. I want to engage with God in a relationship, not so that I can get what I want and control God, which is just impossible, anyways, but so that I can have that experience and that engagement and that relationship back and forth. When a when a prayer actually does get answered, when it all works, I mean, that is some punch you in the face, like knock you down stuff. It is impressive. It is impressive. When it when it happens and you see it happen not on your time, that also is a uh a mind job. Because I've had prayers that I prayed and like literally two years later they came around. And then at the at the actual answer, I saw the path, and I was like, okay, I get that there's a much bigger plan here.

SPEAKER_01

I want to make sure that we don't gloss over something because you use the analogy of you and your daughter, right? Yeah, and and and you know, I'll ask the rhetorical question like, do you give your daughter everything she asks for? Of course not, right? Of course not. But what I want to hone in on is and not and not take for granted that the listener isn't a is aware of this, but the relationship between you and your daughter, me and my daughter, me and my father, my dad, right? Is the same relationship between God and I. God's my father. Okay, I am my daughter's father. So do I want her just to stop communicating with me? Of course not, right? Um, am I gonna give her everything she asked for? Of course not, because some things aren't best for her, right? Um but that you know, the other thing you said was the the communicating. So so it's about having a relationship, right? Which means I'm sharing, I'm talking, I'm expressing myself from where I'm at, right? Good, bad, or indifferent. I'm expressing myself, and you're getting to know me because of how I'm showing up, and then I also have to stop and listen. Bring that in bold, my friend. That's the communication, right? Like it's a two-way street. It is absolutely a two-to-way street, and God is going to talk to me, and again, I'm not saying it's Jim hit the brakes hard, you know, like you are going to get it. And no, but God talks to me, like my experiences in there's feelings, right? I don't always recognize it when it's happening. Sometimes I recognize it after the fact. Um but if I'm not listening, if I'm not open to that, then like he can talk all he wants. It's not going to land because I'm I have to be an active participant. So all that to say, like you know, expressing myself and then listening, it's about relationship. The same relationship that you want with your daughter, we want with God. And the same things have to happen.

SPEAKER_00

And there's a maturity and a growth aspect, and I think is huge, right? Because the the needs um as an infant, the needs as a as a as a uh you know, elementary school kid, the needs as a teenager, the needs as an adult, the as the maturity happens, the needs and the understanding and and that relationship and that exchange change. And I absolutely grow through my spiritual journey and my understanding of that relationship and my roles and and and the roles and the surrender that that I need to have in this back and forth. That's a growth that I'm going to experience. And I'm gonna be having bad days in that process. I'm gonna be having unanswered prayers in that process that really make me angry. I'm gonna have I'm gonna have some lows and I'm gonna have some highs, right? But I'm it's gonna be a thing to where it's not just me getting everything I want. And that understanding and that maturity level is is is part of the growth, and it's part of that um, you know, that back and forth, and that you know, that's the evolution of this prayer. And I think a lot of folks aren't interested in the growth. I think a lot of folks they they just want they they want the instantaneous pleasure drop, bam, you know, I I I ask and I get, and that's just not the way this works, man.

SPEAKER_01

That's not the way this works, and well, and it and it doesn't work that way because you know the relationship isn't transactional, right? Amen. Oh, and the relationship, the relationship, um like any relationship, you have to work at it, right? Now, not to say I have to work at it to make God love me. That's not true. Like God loves me, right? But still, the more time I spend with Him, you know, that's why we're talking about reading the Bible. There's more the more time I'm in the Bible, I'm learning about God, I'm building a relationship. The more I pray, and I don't, you know, I try to pray every day. I try to pray, you know, um, about things, you know, that are going on in other people's lives or experiencing some kind of loss or pain or whatever. I try to pray for that stuff, but if I'm being honest, I don't, I don't always remember, I'm not always in the right frame of mind. Like I'm human, right? Um, but then there are times when I'm kind of snapped back into reality and I ask myself, hey man, like if you really believe in prayer, then you you should pray more often, right? And you should spend more time, not to get what I want, but just to further the relationship.

SPEAKER_00

How would you compare you and your growth in that practice? All right, which some would call meditation, compared to the person that you were before who didn't do that.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, I um I I mean vastly different, better, right? Um I'm better um because uh, you know, we we together read a book, um, something about the world in order. I know you know what book I'm referring to. Um uh Ordering Your World. Oh, yes, yes, ordering your world. Okay, I remember that. And it's about priorities. Okay. And you go through this exercise and it sounds cumbersome, but it's really not like I think you take a day or two days or something like that, and you know, you just jot down where you're spending your time. It's not how right. And then you align that with what you say your priorities are, and either you're full of shitty or not, right?

SPEAKER_00

Like right, legit.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, like I can tell you, I can tell you that a priority is to have a relationship with God, but if I'm not reading the Bible, if I'm not stopping and praying, um no, it's not like it's just not. So I I and I say all that to say in the back of my mind, like, so that's always there, right? What's your priority? You know, if I tell some, if someone shares something with me, they're going through, you know, um, and they ask for prayer, right? What I will always try to do is, yes, I'll pray is is to pray for them. And usually I'll do it right there, either with them or I'll find someplace quiet and just take 30 seconds and I will say a prayer, I will honor that promise I just made to that person, right? Now, the old Jim, years ago, Jim, would have had every intention of saying that prayer, but you know, it was 50-50 at best, whether or not it was gonna happen. Um, and I got to a point where I didn't feel good about that. I'm like, what am I doing? Like, again, do I believe that this prayer is important or don't I? And where's my priorities? And okay, I know inside if I'm not if I'm not um doing the things I need to do to hit my priorities, and it doesn't feel good, and that and and you know, that has to change.

SPEAKER_00

I I think another question that comes around a lot is does it work? Right, and that kind of feeds into some of the other stuff that we've been talking about, and and to that question, my story is uh uh early recovery, which was dark. I mean, it was like I remember uh just entering the program. I mean, rock bottom. Life, life is not good. Life is not, I'm barely holding on, right? I mean, nobody knew it on the outside, but on the inside, I mean, I was a wreck. Yeah, and and I'm not buying this whole spiritual thing because I I came from this very punitive religious background, and I'm thinking to myself, you know, there's no benevolent God, he's he's just this is what I deserve. That was the that was the narrative in my head. It was like I this is all a result of my own doing. And I remember, you know, uh, so the serenity prayer is obviously very popular. God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. And it's so simple, right? It's such a simple thing with very profound at the end of the day. But the the other thing that is very powerful about that is I I mean, that I would go minute to minute repeating that that mantra over and over again to the tune of when I was at the lowest. I mean, that was probably um one of the few things that got me through. And then what would happen is you'd get you you'd get your head above water, and you'd you'd cruise for a little bit, maybe it'd be a week, and then you'd hit something, and then you'd be right back into this thing. And then and it was that constant back and forth, and I'm asking for help. I am on a sinking ship, I am like life preserver, please. I need this right now. Not a lot of patience, not a lot of surrender happening right there. But funny, and so does it work, man. 100% it does work, right? And eventually it it was that engagement with God where I was growing into the person I wanted to be, and holy cow, that person didn't act like a coping mechanism. That person actually gave up some control and actually you know surrendered and and and took it in. And man, let me tell you, so does it work a hundred percent? Does it work when I want it to on my time frame?

SPEAKER_01

Well, almost never when when and how, right, but does it work when and how you want it to? Not necessarily, right? Okay, and going back going back to we don't always know what's best for us, right? Right, yeah, and it and that's that'll piss you off. Well, and but some people might hear that too and be like, yeah, bullshit, like you know, especially in this culture, like you know, um, but and and and not that like you know, not that we're all we're all smart and we're all loving and we're all capable, but that doesn't mean we have all the answers, and I know that you know, everything that is best for me, I can be wrong, and and all I have to do is look back and point to you all the times that I've been wrong when I thought I knew a hundred percent that I was right, you know. You said, Does it work absolutely? But also ask yourself like what's your expectation? What does work if if now you and I both said we pray because of the relationship? Now I I pray because there's things that I ask for, right? But the bigger picture is I'm praying to further the relationship. So does it work? Does it further my relationship? Like, forget about like, do I get what I'm asking for? Am I asking for it? My relationship with Jesus is more full, it's closer because of a bunch of things, but because of prayer for sure.

SPEAKER_00

You you you get to ask for things. We're not saying that you don't. That is not what we're saying. 100%. You but in that ask, you you know, and and in and in the repeated ask, and the asks that seem to be righteous to us, as I'm as I'm kind of like hearkening back to your example. But we we continue to ask, and that's okay. There's there's no wrong answer there. It's okay to ask, yeah. And I think that's important for our listeners to hear.

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely, absolutely. You know, you uh and you mentioned the serenity prayer, and early on in your recovery, you said it over and over and over and over again. Um, you know, which which is so cool. You know, I have a recovery background as well. And the serenity to this day, when I pray in the morning, um, I usually start with the our father and the serenity prayer. Okay. Now I have a little different thing I do with the serenity prayer, right? But it's interesting that we both have a thing like you, yours was repeated. Mine was I slowed it down, you know, and I said, God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change. And those things are everyone else. Like everyone every control else. I can I do not control. And the courage to change the things I can, and then I stop and I say, me, like right here, right now. Yeah, like that's all I can change. And then and the wisdom to know the difference, like you know, it's and I just stop and think about like those words, because if I don't know the difference between what I can control and what I can't control, none of it means anything. So yeah, so and so you man, give me the wisdom, give me, give me the wisdom, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

To see myself truly and fully and in the grand scheme that I'm not something, I am part of something. Amen. Yeah. Last one of the last things I'll ask is like you know, uh obviously you've been praying the same thing for a while in that particular vein, but is there other are there other things that you typically pray for?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so I mean, that's something I I prayed, I've been praying for for a while. Um, I pray there's someone else who I love, you know, more than just about anyone else in this world, a few other people, um, but who I pray a specific prayer for every day. And I have been. Um, and and that's one where if I stop and I look back and I and I realize what I've been praying for all these years, like it it has happened, it is happening. Um, you know, that's a that's a win. I pray for yeah, I pray for, you know, my my wife, um, you know, and things that she has she shares with me about what she's going through. I pray for our marriage. I pray for, you know, I pray for you and the family um, you know, that has moved away and is experiencing new things, other people we know who have moved to other states. Um, I pray for people in our orbit that I know are going through difficult times. And um, you know, so so and I and I I typically, you know, I I have I don't know, but I'll just say like 10 different groups of people or whatever that I will pray for. I don't pray for all of them, but I typically kind of go through those and um and have the usual suspects, and then I'll add, you know, something or someone to that uh uh every now and then. But it tends it tends to be a lot of the same stuff.

SPEAKER_00

Strong, strong. How about you? I typically pray against my fears, and I I do that very intentionally because um I think especially in today's day and age with with you, you got a lot of news coming at you, and and you know, you gotta I think there's this fear culture out there that people dig uh and make money off of. And and I think that at the end of the day, uh and it is it a coper? I I mean, I suppose, but this is a coping mechanism that I truly, honestly, legitimately, and fervently believe in that instead of being afraid of X, Y, and Z, just to relinquish the control, surrender it up and say, Hey, listen, God, here's here's the deal. Yeah, um, yeah, I need your help right here to understand this. Um and I'm talking about like hardcore stuff that is you know happening uh on all levels, globally, but also like personally. Like I pray for the strength to forgive, which I struggle with so much, right? Yeah, and that's where I need a lot of help. But and and and I I pray for the tools and the and and and the other thing I is is I you know I I'm not afraid to admit that I pray to hear the voice that is Christ. And I think that is I I I need help with that, man. I think I struggle with that probably the. Most of anything is to hear the voice and the response. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Did you say you're did you say you're ashamed to admit that? Uh yeah, a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. Oh man, dude, dude, dude. I'm I'm glad you're listening to this podcast today, Larry. Um it's one of the things I pray for all the time. And I the the prayer is just asking God, you know, tell me what I need to hear.

SPEAKER_02

Amen.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Yeah, tell me, tell me what I need to hear and have my ears be open, right? Because I know, you know, um, uh, yeah, I don't think I can't tell you how to feel, but man, there's no shame in that. Like that's that's that's humanist, you know. But it's interesting, like in the Bible, um, again, like there's so there's you know, different parts of the Bible, you know, Paul talks about uh our gifts, right? And you know, the gifts of prophecy and teaching and leading and um encouraging and uh being being generous and all these things. I pray for those things, right? I pray for um for me, I tend to pray for peace, you know, for peace for me. I mean, I don't know how many times in the New Testament the the word peace is used or you know, or Jesus references peace, but it is a lot, right? I pray for peace, I pay for wisdom, right? Like, God, give me wisdom, you know, to to speak into things, to to make decisions you need to make. I pray to be loving, um, for strength, right? Because life is hard, man. For faith, I pray for my faith. Um, because it's not it's not a hundred percent all on all the time. Um so you know, like uh, and and I think um, you know, we're not gonna really get into like what does Jesus say about prayer, but go to Matthew chapter six, um, and like around verse five and on, Jesus talks about praying and and what his what his views are on praying and how to pray. The Our Father, you know, when the disciples ask him how how should we pray, because they saw him pray all the time. Like, here's the Son of God, he you know, right? God, like praying to God, like one of the most powerful things in the New Testament is him him praying. Man, don't make me do this, don't you know, like like we like the crucification, the crucifixion. We hey man, if it's your will, God, take this from me. But if not, like here I am, right? Like this is God praying to God, right? That's the the human in human form praying to God. Um, but he and and when they ask him how to pray, he says, you know, he gives them the our father, pray this way, and then that's where the hour father comes from, is is right out of the Bible. Um, so there's there's so many good examples in the Bible of Jesus, you know, they don't make a big deal out of it, but they're going through whatever, and it's like, and Jesus went off um in the wilderness to find quiet and pray. And and he like all the time.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, all the time. So it's one of those things that we get it. It's I I will say that uh in the journey of the the books that I've read about prayer and and the active pursuit that I've I've done the research on prayer has been probably the most significant faith growth for me. Um like just leaps forward, leaps forward, uh, and that's been a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_01

I would say, you know, like to kind of just close out the topic. Um, you know, if you're out there and um, you know, you're thinking about prayer, uh, you cannot do it wrong. I don't like I like I don't think I don't like if you're hesitating because you don't know how to do it, you don't know what to say, how to say it, words to you can't do it wrong, man. Like there be you, be you. Um, I would say the only thing we can get wrong is our expectation. The the motivation is to build a relationship with God and ask for things, right? Even if you don't know if it's like the right thing, ask for it. It's what it's what you want, it's what your heart is telling. Ask for it, and then keep asking for it, keep asking for it, and maybe you'll find that ask changes or it doesn't change, or I don't know. But man, just like take one step, one step every day. Keep going.

SPEAKER_00

We we cannot thank you as a listener enough for for taking a risk and and engaging us on your growth journey, because growth is not necessarily fun all the time. And and as you are growing in your faith and you're super curious as to like what's this all about, you're risking and listening to what we have to say and being part of this conversational journey. So uh just huge gratitude for that. Uh, we're praying for our listeners, uh, and and uh that the message gets out there that we fully believe is righteous and just uh just so happy to engage with you guys and be able to do this. So uh as as we come to a close, just uh looking forward to our next episodes. Uh, thank you so much. I also want to shout out to our new YouTube channel. By all means, check that out. We're gonna be adding some more content on there. Take care. Awesome. Take care.

SPEAKER_01

Hey, thanks for hanging out with us. Wherever you are with faith, whether it's curious, skeptical, or just tired, we're glad you're here. And if this stirred up thoughts or questions, don't rush past them. Just sit with them. We'll keep the conversation going.