Got Doubt? Good

Most people think doubt is the opposite of faith. We think it's closer to the beginning of it.  In this episode we get honest about where our faith came from, when it failed us and why; including the kind of doubt that's loud and the kind you don't even recognize until you're already in it.  Also, Larry gives us a glimpse into life as a cop, and Jim introduces us to his newest (and painful!) workout.

Also mentioned: Lee Strobel's The Case for Christ and the TV Series The Chosen.

https://faithcurious.buzzsprout.com/2569002

Reach Jim & Larry at faithcuriouspodcast@gmail.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:15

Hey everyone, welcome to Faith Curious. So, what makes this conversation about Faith different? Hey, we're just two guys with no hidden agenda. What you see is what you get.

SPEAKER_01 0:27

It is a brand new day, and we welcome you to the Faith Curious podcast live in Technicolor. It is I, Larry Horton, otherwise known as Podcast Larry, and uh my my faithful host here is Mr. Jim McCauley.

SPEAKER_00 0:43

How are you, sir? I'm good, man. I'm good. Have you ever done Pilates? I haven't. I've wanted to.

SPEAKER_01 0:49

Have you?

SPEAKER_00 0:50

I started Pilates. Um keep in mind I'm a guy that, you know, I've been in the gym three days a week lifting weights for the last whatever five years. Um I I ride bike, you know, I do a lot of cardio. Pilates 30 minutes kicks my ass.

SPEAKER_01 1:08

Wow. So what what determines like why did you want to go? You've done you do all this other stuff. Why would you want to add Pilates in there?

SPEAKER_00 1:15

I do something different, but also I'm having I'm trying to I'm trying to uh work around a back issue and not have this be a lifelong thing. Um and Pilates is seems to make sense. Every time I leave Pilates, I am huffing and puffing. I'm sweating, and I feel like I didn't barely move like the whole time.

SPEAKER_01 1:39

Like, how did I get so tired?

SPEAKER_00 1:40

How how was this so hard? Today, like we did legs, my my legs were burning, burning, like almost shaking. You know, took a few minutes, got in the car, got home a half hour later, still shaking. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:54

Oh wow, yeah, you're you're not joking around. Holy cow. Um, but anyway, along those same lines, I did something new I haven't done for quite a while. What's it on uh on Tuesday? Uh oh no Wednesday, I ended up uh so I box, I go to a boxing gym. Okay, and I ended up going into a sparring session I didn't know I was gonna go into on Wednesday. That was pretty neato.

SPEAKER_00 2:19

Wow, yeah, what'd you do?

SPEAKER_01 2:21

Uh I gave more than I got, which was pretty I was pretty happy about that. Um I felt pretty and I it was funny. We ended up we end up going five rounds. Oh wow. Now we took quite a bit of time in between how long is each round? Three minutes. Holy cow! Yeah, no joke, man. That's impressive. Well, it and it what's neat is is uh, and this is kind of a little hidden secret. My coach teach me how to breathe. Okay, I don't think a lot of coaches work on that, they're just working about hitting, but my coach actually works on breathing with me, and I think that that is the foundation that everything else comes off of. It's fascinating.

SPEAKER_00 2:57

I think it's the foundation of life. One of the foundations of life is breathing. I'm gonna have to ask you. Um, I'm gonna have to ask you um to not use the term neato anymore. I think I think I think it might ruin our street cred. You do you, but um the rest. Um anywho, I I do have I do have a question, a couple questions for you. Because I okay, hit me. I was I was thinking about this the other day, and you know, you've talked a little bit on the show about you being a cop, and and you know, we've talked a little bit about that, but I got some questions, right?

SPEAKER_01 3:26

Oh there's questions, yes.

SPEAKER_00 3:28

I got some questions. Number one, uh, how long were you a cop?

SPEAKER_01 3:32

Technically, 20 years on the department. Okay, I was eight years on patrol, and then uh I thankfully got behind behind a desk and it was okay.

SPEAKER_00 3:42

So eight years on patrol, that means you wore a uniform.

SPEAKER_01 3:45

Oh, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00 3:47

Did you ever do a stakeout? Did you ever do a stakeout? I and what and were there coffee and donuts and were there coffee and donuts involved? No donuts for coffee, strangely. Were you the guy that was told like to go run down to the convenience store to get a snack, or did you tell someone else to do that? Which guy were you? Well, I think it was every man for themselves. What about uh interrogations? You ever do interrogation? Play good cop, bad cop, shine the bright light in the eyes. Do you do that stuff?

SPEAKER_01 4:16

Oh man, I want you to imagine so you gotta imagine this. I was working graveyard shifts and I was 22 years old. Okay, and we had we had arrested throughout the course of the evening, these guys had broken into this business and we caught them. And it was uh they were just vandals, it wasn't anything really like the crime of the century, but I mean it was some really significant damage, right? This spray painting and all this breaking mirrors and stuff. And man, I thought I was Kojak, I thought I was the man, I thought I was so like I was, you know, because I'm 22 and these are like teenagers, and so I think that I'm like just I and and I mean, so I recorded it on a I recorded it on a mini cassette recorder so that I could turn it in for evidence, and I actually found it years ago and and I played it, and it was the most like I wouldn't, I don't I hope it never sees the light of day because it was just embarrassingly, it was it was just such a joke.

SPEAKER_00 5:17

I thought hold on, you you and I then are the opposite side of that because I hope it sees the light of day. Do you still have it?

SPEAKER_01 5:23

I can't, I it's probably like in uh in our moving, I'm sure it'll come up at some point, but uh I don't know where it is.

SPEAKER_00 5:30

Here's what I'm just if you come across it, put it aside. I'm not gonna ask you to commit to showing it to me, but I'm gonna ask you to commit to not throwing it away. Just just put it out there at some point. Like maybe when I come out to visit you in Ohio, be like, hey, let's see the interrogation. At that point, you can like, no. Let me ask you this do you ever do the old uh you know, run into the car, slide across the hood to get, you know, to end your car? Do you do that or no?

SPEAKER_01 5:55

No, I I never did that. I never did that. We there was a time that um we we were in a pretty intense pursuit. Um, and it was a bunch of cars. Like I was mine was not the only one, but I happened to be driving in this one, and uh the guy crashed, and you know, we all came to a halt, and I and I opened up the driver's side door, and I and I you know drew my gun and and and then the car kept going because I didn't put it in park. So you ran over yourself almost? Oh man, Keystone Cops. So I I I my my partner's like the car. So I jumped back in the driver's seat and I had to put it in park.

SPEAKER_00 6:37

It was oh my lord.

SPEAKER_01 6:38

Yeah, it was that was a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_00 6:40

Yeah, there there must be a million of those stories out there, though. Like, you know, it it would it would the first time you're doing something, right?

SPEAKER_01 6:46

Like, you know, yeah, it's what I think is hilarious, and this is another reason I think that kind of my I'm I'm where I'm at in my life today is that you know, I I've just had so many humbling experiences, and and those humbling experiences were put on display for so many people to see, you know, and and it was just right and you know, today I'm like, you know what? Um a lot of that pursuit of percept perfection really messed me up. So I you know, once I kind of just accepted that you know, we're all kind of messed up and we mess up and it's okay. Uh I think I really just took like I added years to my life when I just was resolute to that.

SPEAKER_00 7:22

So well, that that is cool. I I imagine um we'll get to the topic, but I imagine in your career you've seen the best of people and the worst of people. Um, is there a uh what effect did that have on your faith? Because we're gonna we're gonna go into faith in doubt.

SPEAKER_01 7:40

That's a complicated question. I'm gonna try to sum that up and as quick as I can. But um the reason it's complicated is because my faith came around after my religion left. And um there was quite a bit of confusion on my part between faith and religion, because throughout my time in patrol, all the way up until like early 2000s, um, I just was really involved in religion and it was very shame-based and and punitive. And um, so my faith it was it was more like a vicious cycle. It was it was uh it was not uh renewing in any way, shape, or form. I you could even make an argument that I I was probably in my mid to late 30s before I really got faith. You know, in in in a previous episode, I really talked about the church of man versus the church of God, and and and what I'm talking about there is a lot of this conversation, the religion versus faith.

SPEAKER_00 8:44

Totally.

SPEAKER_01 8:45

And um, so yeah, I it I saw some really dark stuff. Um, I saw I saw some some stuff that was, you know, I I had to cut people down from rafters. Um, I had to uh I I I people died in my arms, kind of thing. And I mean, I'm not trying to get too gory here, but I mean, just stuff is trauma, you know. I just saw a lot of trauma.

SPEAKER_00 9:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:10

And um what's funny is I look back on those things and and and I am so grateful for my faith now as a healing aspect of that. I I often wonder, you know, because it life is life, and and there's life has suffering in it. We've talked about that before on the show. And like, how do you deal with that if you don't have a spiritual component? So, speaking of the things that we talked about in previous episodes, so I mean, for before I move on, I don't want there to be too abrupt of a transition there. I mean, what do you think about it? Is that satisfy your your? I want to I want to make sure I answered the question. Yeah, absolutely. Dig it. Okay, nice, nice. Well, we episode one, we obviously talked about a little bit of our backgrounds and who we are, and then and and just the importance of uh kind of wrestling with faith, the stuff that and then we can kind of set up some guardrails as to what we believed in in episode two. We talked about how you know it's just so difficult following some of those things and and and being faithful and and and why is it so difficult when uh up against culture and life and people's actions, and and and episode three was a great conversation. We talked about the pressure of pursuing the faith and and and you know, having to sign on the dotted line and what that what that all means, and and you know, which brings us to today, which I'm looking, I'm excited about having a conversation because we're gonna talk about you know, let's let's define faith a little bit more and then talk about the role of doubt within that. I think you can use the word faith and throw it around like a like words like love or good. You know, what do those even mean? So, what is the definition of faith for you?

SPEAKER_00 10:54

Yeah, I mean, and I don't know if there is one definition, right? Um, you know, in I was looking this up, and the definition that I came across that I really liked was a conviction in something for which there is no proof. And and to me that says everything, it's a conviction, right? But also it's not one and one equals two. I can't prove it to you.

SPEAKER_01 11:22

I believe it, but you know, I'm not in a position to argue that I'm right because there's no proof the prove it section of that. Yeah, right. Okay, you know, if I'm if I'm a listener, there's a lot of uh uncertainty there, you know, and in a world where certainty has some kind of currency, I think it's tough to accept.

SPEAKER_00 11:49

Yeah, and that's why I love that definition, because the idea of doubt, which we're gonna talk about today, like it's a big part of what we want to talk about. Um, doubt's baked into it, right? Doubt isn't bad, doubt is baked right into the definition because there's no proof. So, so I I think there has to be some doubt for some people.

SPEAKER_01 12:12

Let me ask you this. I mean, I mean, are you even allowed to doubt? You know what I'm saying? Like, is is doubt a four-letter word? And and and oh, you you can't you can't shake it. No, just just just follow, folks. Don't don't question, you know.

SPEAKER_00 12:27

Don't look at don't read it, just sign it. Right? And and I I think unfortunately, um it's for a lot of people, it's black and white. I don't think it is black and white, but it's either you believe and you have faith, or you you have doubt. And if you have doubt, to some people that means your faith isn't very strong, or um you have more work to do, or um, you know, you're a sinner, or you don't believe, or you're not going to have whatever, right? Um, and I think it's absolutely the opposite where we should doubt. Doubt is good. Doubt is the way that you know, what follows doubt then is uh curiosity and discovery and and education and searching, right? And and then that helps me strengthen my faith. Not that I'm eliminating all the doubt. Maybe you do, maybe you don't, but you probably don't eliminate all the questions or the thirst for uh more information or deeper connection or whatever. But to me, you don't get to a really strong faith without at some point having some doubt.

SPEAKER_01 13:42

Okay, so then the question is you know, what doubt led to your strong faith?

SPEAKER_00 13:48

Um I can I can answer like um what what brought on my doubt, right? Because I I feel like where do we get our faith from I think is the precursor to how strong is our faith, i.e., you know, what doubt do we have? Right, right, um, and I like probably most people got my faith just by the family that I was born into, right? I don't want to say my faith, it was my it was my religion, but at that time they were the same thing, right? They're not now right.

SPEAKER_01 14:26

So you and I you and I walk the same path on that one, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:30

And so, you know, I grow up, you know, in a Catholic household, um, going to church. I went to a Catholic grade school, all my friends went to that Catholic grade school for the most part. So my community was that religion. Um and there was nothing wrong with that, but that's all I knew, right? And I so I I I adopted let's call it, let's call it the family faith, right? Okay, um, and as I got older, I I always felt like as a young adult that there was something missing and I was searching for more. Um I I'm not saying like like really rolling up my sleeve searching, but there was this thing in my heart where I wanted more and I was looking for more and I wasn't getting more. And you know, as I went through life and or or experienced difficulties, difficulties, you know, in a marriage, um, difficulties with you know not being happy with with how I was showing up and who the who I the man I was becoming, at those points I needed something to to guide me, to steer me, to point me, and that should have been faith, but I didn't have I had religion, I didn't have faith. And and that's where it went, that's where it went. I won't say wrong, because here I am, right? But at that point in time, it took a road that made things, you know, it was a road I needed to take, but it was a tough road.

SPEAKER_01 16:12

There's so much there I love. The okay, so so what I'm hearing you say is you you would argue that until you got rid of the religion almost is when you when you started with the faith. It's very similar to what I said earlier.

SPEAKER_00 16:27

Yeah. Um and it's not like uh one day I'm like, oh, I gotta get rid of this religion. It was more like one day I'm like, why why aren't things working for me? What is missing? Um, and in time, the answer was faith. But but in that, I went through um not believing in God, um, you know, having just negative opinions uh about religion and faith in general, because I lumped it all into one thing. Um and and also looking back, like some of the things that I was questioning and unhappy about, I you know, I had almost zero knowledge about the the bigger picture. You know, the picture of Jesus in my life, the picture of um, you know, his sacrifice for me, you know, yada yada yada, all the things that we can talk about, we've talked about a little bit. Um, but that's what was missing for me.

SPEAKER_01 17:22

Were you allowed to doubt as uh a younger person prior to leaving the Catholic faith?

SPEAKER_00 17:30

I don't know that it ever really came up. Um I think I think the unstated message was likely no, like, hey, this is what we believe. Like and like fall in place, fall into lockstep. Yeah, but it also wasn't like you know, it's not like it's not like we were a really, really spiritual family. Uh, you know, it's not like we talked about Jesus all the time, or it was just a thing, but this thing we did, we went to church, we believed this, and kind of I would say maybe it wasn't even like the number one priority in our life, probably not by far, right? Um, so doubt, doubt then didn't come up because it wasn't like the thing we were talking about, faith.

SPEAKER_01 18:17

So in your current faith, in this it and I'm and I'm talking really at the beginning of this particular faith journey that you're on now. Yeah, how was doubt either embraced or not embraced in this journey that you're on now?

SPEAKER_00 18:31

Great question. Um, and I I think the difference is in this journey um I was led to information and uh given the freedom to make my own decision, to to ask the questions. Uh, you know, anytime I asked a question or uh, you know, had a had an issue with this belief or that belief, uh, you know, that was met with um with open conversation, with you know, with with pointing to, well, here's what we believe in why, and and this is where you find it. Um, and this is these are some issues that some people have with it. And you know, um it was it was uh all it was left to me, and that was the difference maker because I had I had uh freedom to make my own decision. And that freedom translates into confidence, I think. Yeah, I mean it translates into ownership, right? Yeah, um, because it would, you know, it was me doing the work, me asking the questions, me not understanding, me wanting to understand. I've seen this modeled in the Bible, right?

SPEAKER_01 19:42

And I think that's important. I've seen I've seen where folks in in stories in the New Testament have said, hey, listen, um, I'm doubting what you're what you're kind of I or I have questions. It you know, it might even be framed as just something as simple as, you know, hey, what about this? I'm gonna ask you, God, and and how that was modeled, where never in the in the Bible did I see, oh, you know, you can't ask that, or I don't want to answer that question, or you know, it was always like, Oh, yeah, and this.

SPEAKER_00 20:19

So we'll we'll get into the Bible, right? Um, so you know, our intent is not to go into the weeds here, but give us an example. Well, you know, what do you what are you referring to in the Bible that you where you saw doubt?

SPEAKER_01 20:31

Well, I mean, even to the some of the some of the big ones, uh, you know, I the term doubting Thomas is a biblical term, right? And it's when when the uh I want to say as a disciple Thomas was was saying, you know, I don't believe that he rose from the dead, and then you know literally Jesus showed him, you know, stick your hands in my wounds, you know. Uh you can, you know, see him, see him for yourself, right? And then like the point of that entire thing was uh, you know, some of you have have believed without seeing, and to those of you who have believed without seeing, I mean, I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna give you some props, but it really is it's gonna be there, so but also like Jesus embraced that doubt.

SPEAKER_00 21:17

He didn't he didn't reprimand Thomas, right? Right, he didn't shame him, he didn't say, Hey man, you got some more work to do, but he he embraced it, like, hey, you know, yeah, let me show you.

SPEAKER_01 21:31

The times that I've questioned and had the freedom uh to to see, like, all right, challenge it, it just instills that confidence. And it and it and I can't help but like there's credibility established there on a significant level.

SPEAKER_00 21:48

Yeah. You know, so we've been talking about faith and doubt, and doubt's okay um from our perspective. But like, what about you? Do you have um a a difference? Story, different version, you know, slightly different view of it, or how do you how do you view the whole thing? Faith and doubt and the doubt's role.

SPEAKER_01 22:07

I I think that for me, um growing up in in religious doctrine, I don't think that I had the confidence. If somebody was going to come around and say, hey, you know, you're a fool, that's mythology. I at the time that I was very, you know, before I really am on the current faith journey that I'm on now, I didn't have the tools um in order to kind of refute that accusation. Instead, I would just kind of cower from that. And at the end of the day, please don't ask me these questions. I I'm just I'm trying to, you know, I'm trying to make it to the next day kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 22:52

Why do you think that is? Why do you think that you that uh there was so much, I don't know, angst about getting it right or proving your knowledge or however you would phrase that.

SPEAKER_01 23:03

When I when I went to the non-dom non-denominational Christian religion and and and that faith, man, I was just given so much tools and knowledge and interpretation and and explanation, and and and there they were just welcoming the questions and that exchange, not not where I was just being talked at, but like that exchange of like of the ideas and things.

SPEAKER_00 23:31

Well, I think I think one of the things is when we get the question at some point in our faith, you know, we feel this pressure to um to convince someone, amen. Yes, of of our point of view. Um and you know, uh, and I think now, at least what you know, what we should try to do is be more curious and understand where this person is coming from, what's their background, right? Um, why are they asking the question, you know, and and and have it be more of a conversation, a mutual conversation, back and forth just about faith. What what does your faith mean to you? And you know, like at the end of the day, who cares? You know, what we care about is what we should care about. Why is our faith important? What does it do for me? Why do I believe? Does it bring, you know, how does it bring me closer to God and enrich my life?

SPEAKER_01 24:31

Oh my gosh, that's like the perfect what a what that is the question that that is the question that we need to be asking, right?

SPEAKER_00 24:40

But like our very first episode, I think, you know, yeah, we started this whole thing off, Larry, with so Jim, what do you believe? You know, you actually believe that Jesus, you know, was a man and a god, yeah, and he did miracles and raised people from the dead, yeah. And he was crucified and rose from the dead, yeah. And then he floated up into heaven, yeah. Uh you know, so I'm sorry. Um that doesn't create some if any one of those doesn't create some doubt for people, um I would say you are a sheep, you should doubt that. Okay, why you know why is this the truth then and how did how does it fit into the bigger picture puzzle of what faith is and what Jesus did for us?

SPEAKER_01 25:37

It it's not only that you're open to doubt. What I hear you saying and what I fully believe is you better doubt. Yeah, if you don't doubt, that's a problem. Why? That's a problem because it then then you are just taking their word for it, and there's no there's no effort on your part, it's not yours.

SPEAKER_00 26:02

You're not taking responsibility for the relationship, you know, you're you're adopting someone else's faith, really, and and and it's lazy. I mean, I don't want to be so judgmental, but it is. Well, I'll say this like adopting someone else's faith, in my opinion, it's better than no faith, but I do believe eventually you're gonna have to do more, you're gonna have to make it your own, otherwise, you're it's not gonna be there for you when you need it.

SPEAKER_01 26:36

Amen. And and how are you supposed to if you're if you're not uh actively pursuing your relationship, and if you're not actively, you know, trying to deepen your faith in in the exchange, in the constant renewing, then then you you're you're you're phoning it in, man.

SPEAKER_00 27:00

Right.

SPEAKER_01 27:00

That's a lot of work.

SPEAKER_00 27:03

Yeah, and is it is it uh is it worthwhile work, right? Are you getting anywhere? Um so I so if you know a listener has this idea of faith, whether their own personal idea of faith, you know, what it means in their life or has it meant, or how does it balance with religion? Okay, if they have that, and then they also you know they have doubt, and they sh and and hopefully, you know, the message is yeah, embrace the doubt, right? Amen. Next question is so what do you do with that doubt?

SPEAKER_01 27:42

That kind of harkens back to like last episode as well, because again, you could do all this on your own, right? You could do the research on your own, you could absolutely read books. You need to speak your truth, have that doubt, and then have that doubt engaging with somebody else. And I'm not even like here, we're having this conversation, right? And we have created a space that is like, hey, bring the doubt. We want you to have doubts. And we're not clergy, we're not, you know, pastors or anything, we're not you know, from seminary, but but we're having this conversation. If you're listening to this right now, that's you're you're you're already kind of doing it, all right. Congratulations, way to go. But to go further, all right, conversations, research, reading, you know, shoot, get on YouTube for the love.

SPEAKER_00 28:37

I mean, you know, start starting to do that. Get on Claude and start asking questions. And I, you know, I agree with you, like in a perfect world, you do it in community, but you know, that's not always uh, you know, that's not always a first step, right?

SPEAKER_01 28:50

Amen. Yeah, that's and that's reasonable. Yeah, you're right.

SPEAKER_00 28:53

So, I mean, you know, people can read the Bible, right? And we're gonna talk about reading the Bible. Um so talk about that, you know, really quick. My story on reading the Bible. I can remember I I mentioned before I I wanted more, I was I was yearning for more. There are a couple different times in my life where I'm like, you know what? I should read the Bible. And I got like a Bible on my bookcase, and I walk up to the bookcase, I pull the Bible off, I open it up, and you know, if you don't understand what this means, look it up. It was King James Version, which means it was like old ink, I don't know if it was old English, I don't know how you would describe it, but it was words that I did not ever use or understand next to other words that I never used or understand or understood. And I'm like, I honestly God, open it up, turn it, started reading. I'm like, I can't do this. Close it up back on the bookshelf, maybe two years later did it again. Like, you know, like like, but so we're gonna talk about that.

SPEAKER_01 29:53

Like, oh, you know it, yes, sir.

SPEAKER_00 29:55

Yeah, because that that's because I didn't know any further, like how I could have a different experience. It you know, it set me back years, right? But read the Bible, find a church, talk to someone that you know goes to church, you know. If if that's you, find a community within the church, ask questions. Here's one pray. We're gonna talk about prayer, yeah. And what is prayer and why do you pray? Um, you know, serve other people.

SPEAKER_01 30:26

You're gonna have a hard time not having a spiritual experience when you actually go out and give of yourself in an inconvenient way that is that is meaningful and has some real impact, you know. Holy cow!

SPEAKER_00 30:38

And we talked about books, Larry. I you know, I I got books, I I have read a ton of books.

SPEAKER_01 30:44

You want to tell me about those because I really I think that's very valuable, especially for our listeners.

SPEAKER_00 30:49

I'm gonna pick one, right? Um, author is Lee Strobel, and he wrote a book called The Case for Christ. And a little background, he is an invest. Well, I don't know if he still is or not, but was an investigative journalist for the Chicago Tribune. So this is a dude who, you know, like got a story and then went and investigated both sides of it to under to try to understand the truth. His wife was Catholic or Christian, you know, um, and he he wasn't. He was an atheist. And he's like, you know what? I'm gonna go do some investigating journalists on this whole Christianity thing. And I think, you know, my words, but like I'm I'm gonna blow a hole in this thing and you know, show my wife that hey, you know, this this is not the right road to go down. And, you know, I think you can figure out where he went, but that's not even the point. What's really, really interesting, he looked at everything. He looked at Did Jesus live? Um, and then interviewed uh people on both sides, experts on both sides, historians. And then at the end of that, didn't say all right, this is the truth, said based on all the information we have, the most likely scenario is and he did that with uh with his life, uh with uh um miracles, with uh his crucifixion, with uh rising from the dead. Was he actually buried? But did did people see him after did they see him crucified? Did they see him buried? Did they see him afterwards, you know? Like and and and it's not just he's he's doing his investigative thing. So to me, I read that and I was fascinated, very good read, but it it uh it helped me uh understand um and articulate uh why I believe these things to be true.

SPEAKER_01 32:45

I think that they're right now I heard us some statistics talking about how a massive generation is coming to um faith in Christianity and and following Christ, and it's a younger generation, and I I think that's fascinating. Recently, uh, like within the last several years, I got into a show called The Chosen, which um, you know, having having gone to church, you know, on this last journey for a while, and this current journey for a while, and really kind of fleshing out some of the stories in the Bible, I thought this was really cool. But then to see, like, and and there is some, you know, there is some artist license taken. I'm gonna I'm gonna go ahead and capitulate to that. But at the end of the day, too, I think there's a really significant aspect of being able to flesh out a story that I've read over and over again, and then have like put a face on it and make it real, and then to really kind of delve into the richness of that story. That right there is that's allowing me to question things, but then to question them with context and then suddenly learn like that's an active pursuit. And so it's not surprising to me that with that media, you're having folks see things and understand things. These are young kids that are are seeing things. I had I had uh uh you know, air quotes Catholic education all the way through through high school, and they are knowing things that I never that I never knew in ways that are just so much more connected. Yeah. And you can't help but like it, yeah. I bet you're hungry. I bet you're hungry for more. And and in that hunger, I I hope that you doubt and do that very, very intentionally. And and that's that's really going to be what with the doubt adds the credibility once once you work through these things. And that's that's strong right there.

SPEAKER_00 34:49

Amen. I so I've seen an episode or two of The Chosen, um, but I've taught I've heard from people, I've talked to people, you've talked about it. It's it's it's supposed to be amazing. So, you know, all this to say, like, if you know, if you're if you're investigating the faith, you have some doubt, which we encourage have doubt, right? Then what do you do? Well, you gotta take action, you gotta do something, anything, like one step is better than no step. Not moving isn't gonna get you anywhere, right? Um, and there's all kinds of things that you can do, um, especially today, you know. I mean, man, we barely had the internet, right? And now, and now you got Claude, and you know, and I and I'm not saying that that's the end all be all. Be smart with all the technology, but there's answers there that um that we did not have access to. Um, so I just encourage you, you know, whatever it is, wherever you are, take a step.

SPEAKER_01 35:51

And listening to this podcast is absolutely uh absolutely part of that. That's that's part of the reason that we're doing this. It is the reason we're doing it. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Honestly, in all seriousness, no, that I mean we're we're having a great time and having some great conversations. And I just really appreciate how you know we I believe that we're not just walking the walk, we're talking, not just talking the talk, we're walking the walk as well. And that's that's that's super strong. This has been another great conversation. Uh just love the time, love the that that you, the listener, are taking the time to have this conversation with us, and and we only hope that um as we encourage you to you know have that engagement and have that exchange, that uh you're you're enjoying doing that alongside us. And we're looking forward to kind of telling a little bit more of our stories along the way. Uh, so you can really just see where we're coming from, and at the same time, just to see, like, you know, we're just like you. Should we uh should we should we wrap this bad boy up? Yes. Uh thank you for for joining us on Faith Curious. Uh, we look forward to you guys relying on us for some just some authentic conversation uh as we try to figure this out uh alongside with you in a way that is curious and asking questions. Take care of yourselves, everybody. Peace out.

SPEAKER_00 37:16

Have a great day.

SPEAKER_01 37:17

Take care.

SPEAKER_00 37:18

Hey, thanks for hanging out with us. Wherever you are with faith, whether it's curious, skeptical, or just tired, we're glad you're here. And if this stirred up thoughts or questions, don't rush past them. Just sit with them. We'll keep the conversation going.