Maybe We Should Start With An Apology

Faith is complicated. And if it's ever felt hard for you because someone or something hurt you, a question nobody answered honestly, or just a quiet feeling that it's not for you, then this one's for you. No pressure. Just an honest conversation. And maybe an overdue apology.

Book Reference:  Blue Like Jazz by Donald Miller

https://faithcurious.buzzsprout.com/2569002

You Tube:  https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6LMmRuPXqtRFaYp8JuA7Wg

Reach Jim & Larry at faithcuriouspodcast@gmail.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:06

Hey everyone, welcome to Faith Curious. So, what makes this conversation about faith different? Hey, we're just two guys with no hidden agenda. What you see is what you get.

SPEAKER_00 0:18

It is a brand new day. Welcome, seekers, doubters, welcome people of faith who are checking us out. My name is Larry Horton, and I'm with the man.

unknown 0:29

Mr.

SPEAKER_00 0:29

Jim McCauley, how are you doing?

SPEAKER_01 0:31

Uh, thank you, Mr. Horton. I am doing fine today.

SPEAKER_00 0:35

When people struggle with, and very specifically, Jesus Christ, all right, and what he was, you know, what he was doing for the world and his benevolence. I I think that um when people struggle with that, are they really struggling with him or are they struggling with other aspects? A la religion or the church of man. And so I'm asking you the question, you know, uh, which I think it is important is why why do people struggle with this thing? Why do why do why is Christianity so difficult sometimes to be a part of or to subscribe to?

SPEAKER_01 1:19

Boy, ton of reasons, right? Like you hit on a couple of them, and I think I think it's it's all across the board. Um and like if you if you go back to like this podcast, right? Like we're we're doing this because uh because you know, we we want to help people that that are curious um get get answers. Like before we like go any further, I think it makes sense, like, all right, well, why do people struggle with this? You know, like like let's like let's let's just not assume, but let's like let's throw some things out there. Um, because I think you know, people people struggle with other people that have hurt them, they struggle with maybe an experience in the church. Um, they struggle with uh the Bible, you know, and the some of the crazy things that are in the Bible, particularly the old testament. Um we just kind of wanted to tease some of those up um and and address them.

SPEAKER_00 2:22

Yeah, I I think I and I love what you said. Um sadly, you you can't remove the human nature out of the human, right? So I think sadly, people have hurt other people and then done so in the name of religion X, right? Yeah, and we are no better or no different, yeah, right, and I think that deserves some attention, which is um it's a little shameful, it's a little embarrassing on our side of the street. I I grew up Catholic, right? And um, you know, when I moved to Arizona shortly after that, and I I was still Catholic at the time in uh just the very late 90s and the early 2000s, that's when the huge scandal about Catholic priests was going down. Yeah, and man, uh it was it was um it was hard to really be proud of a faith at that point when you had just a whole bunch of things that were not done right by a whole bunch of people in authoritative positions, Hippocratic.

SPEAKER_01 3:38

I mean, just yeah, not yeah, but like really the truth is it's deeper than that. People that are in authoritative positions, and listen, we're not here to bash the Catholic Church, right? I mean, that's not Amen. Yeah, not not here, but that happened, but not only authoritative positions, um, positions where they represented God, and they did not show up in a way that I I can categorically say Jesus did not approve of.

SPEAKER_00 4:06

I'm sorry, and and okay, I love what you said right there because I don't know if people necessarily differentiate between okay, this priest, ex-person, human being did this, and I'm going to blame an entire religion or an entire faith. I'm gonna blame Jesus. Right, they don't differentiate between, okay, this was an act of a human being under the guise of Christ, which was really messed up, versus what Jesus said on on the Sermon on the Mount and had nothing to do with or or even remotely similar to that.

SPEAKER_01 4:43

Well, yeah, you know, so my own personal experience, I grew up Catholic as well, um, and was in the Catholic Church as you were around this time, and it's one of the reasons that I started to look for something else because I I just I it did not square with me um how they handled it, um, and to this day, really, how they've handled it. Um, so but people have been hurt is my point, right? And and I don't know, like listen, I I can tell you I'm sorry, uh you know it doesn't mean anything coming from me, right? But people have been hurt um by religion, um, by religion. And and this isn't the only example, this is just one. So many examples, so many examples. Um but you know, well, so I'll give you another one. Uh again, I don't mean to to it's a it's about the Catholic Church, but um, but it's just another example, right? So, you know, you had the child molestation, um, and and the the hiding of that, right? Um trying to cover it up, really was like almost made it worse. Yeah, well, it did make yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 100% made it worse. Um, because because all those people never got a chance to heal because it just perpetuated when on and on and on and on and on. Um, but my mother got divorced from my father when I was uh uh right before my freshman year in uh high school. And at that time, like she was like one of the I was one of the only people that grew up in a family where my parents were divorced, right? It just wasn't that common, or at least we didn't know about it. Um, but as a result of that, she really wasn't welcome in the church. Now I don't know if she was like technically told not to come. I I don't know the story. All I know I got from her was she wasn't welcome, and you know, and if I'm being honest, I was kind of like, woo-hoo, we don't have to go to church anymore. You know, but but you know, like um, and and my parents were very, very involved in the church, very involved in the church. So to have that, you know, to be rejected by a community that you loved and poured into is hurtful, right? And that's just another example of people being hurt by a church.

SPEAKER_00 7:09

So tell me about the differentiation, because I think this is hugely, hugely important. The differentiation between the institution, the church of man versus the faith. Talk to me about what that is for you.

SPEAKER_01 7:27

Um I'm not sure you're asking me.

SPEAKER_00 7:31

Well, we and it's even in our faith, right? As Christ comes back, one of the things that I I love is how rebellious he was. I love how rebellious he was against things like the church of man, where people were saying, Here's the rules, right? And you were excluded if you don't do this exactly like this, then thanks, but no thanks, right? Right, which is not the message. The message was not that at all, yeah. And that that same thing is pervasive through quite a few different institutions, but not consistent with faith, right? And and I think that you could point that at the at certain aspects of Christianity, you could point it at you know, and and some of the big players, right? Catholicism, Mormons. Um, I think that that is those are that's those are probably the the folks who get the most attention.

SPEAKER_01 8:28

Yeah, it's it's so interesting. Like if you read the Bible in the New Testament and and how Jesus um just just railed against the religious leaders because of you know, following the rules was more important than God, you know, or you know, really believing in God, um, or understanding the faith or committing to the faith. Um, and that's yeah, that's what it's another reason why people have a hard time because their experience in religion is well, it's just about the rules, and you know, if you don't, if you don't do a, b, c, and d, even if you a you do a, b, and c, but you don't do d, well, it's not good enough. And you know, like, shame on you.

SPEAKER_00 9:06

Um and and then there's judgment, yeah, which is also a huge turn off, right? Right, and then there's you know, folks will start to put together a book and they'll say, Here, look at all these different reasons, you know. Right, right. Uh this this and we need to be accountable to our own stuff, right? And I I think about um Duck Dynasty, and oh, heaven forbid, you know, you you you have a uh uh an article that comes out, and then oh well, you're judging uh against gay people, so and then there's a narrative that goes out. All Christians are anti-gay, right? Right. And we also have issues within our own church that we face where where people who were trusted and put in a positions of authority, who were preaching the message, were at the same time dishonoring their own marriage and turned out to be extremely scandalous, right? Like you can start to really put you know, you're thinking to yourself, these guys are are are the folks who are you know, they're delivering this message of benevolence and love, and they're not even following it. And so why should I subscribe?

SPEAKER_01 10:20

Well, and so you so here's where you cross over into like being you know, people hurting people, right? And and that's one of the areas is this hypocrisy, and and you know, religious leaders, you know, living scandalous lives, railing on uh, you know, homosexuality, for example. And then turns out years later you find out that they're gay or they're they're they're found fooling around in the bathroom with someone of their own sex, like like and listen, it's a fine line, right? Because we're all human and humans can make mistakes. So I don't, I don't like if a religious leader makes a mistake, you know, that's no different than me making a mistake, in my opinion, right? But how they respond to it is the difference. Like, if you don't own it, well, now I have a problem with your religion, right? Uh right, because I shouldn't have a problem with your religion because you made a mistake, you sinned, you know, whatever, however, you want to term it, because that's all of us, right? Um, you know, but it's when they don't own it and they try to want to run away from it. Now you're looking at like, okay, well, hey man, like what does this faith really do for you? Because you're you're not showing it because it build character because it doesn't seem like it. You're given a chance to show your character, and then I'm not seeing that, so I'm out.

SPEAKER_00 11:44

Yeah, yeah, and justifiably so in that in that case. Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, we I I get it. Yeah, I get it, yeah. Let's head towards kind of closing out some of these reasons because I think it's it's also time to just really be accountable ourselves. But at the end of the day, too, I think that on the other side of this shame thing. Um you know, you you you have the people who are committing the scandals and doing things in the name uh of Christ and pointing fingers. There's also folks out there who think to themselves, you know, I do appreciate that Christ loves me, and I don't know if I'm worthy of that love, like that gets in the way of subscribing to this as well. I'm I'm not a good person, you know. I mess up or I don't do things right, I don't deserve to be whatever XYZ. Right. That's also a lot out there as well.

SPEAKER_01 12:39

Well, yeah, 100%. And I would even say, um, you know, like Jesus loving Christians struggle with that, right? Right. I mean, struggle with regularly the idea that I'm not worthy, but and again, I don't I'm just gonna say this because we're we're there and it makes sense. Um, you know, the the the Christian faith believing in Jesus is all about I know I'm not good enough, right? I'm not good enough and I can't earn my way in, you know. I'm in because Jesus is my Lord. Now we don't we don't need to go any deeper farther than that. Um but but I do totally get I feel it sometimes that uh I'm just not good enough. I'm just not good enough.

SPEAKER_00 13:29

It's I love you saying that because um that's why we're having these conversations, right? That's that's really at the core, like scandals. Absolutely, we need to acknowledge that, but I think it's at the core of all of this. I think all of us have just this doubt, even you and I have the doubt.

SPEAKER_01 13:51

Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. Um let me let me keep the ball rolling. Uh, what about the idea of you know, God? Like it's hard your it's hard to wrap your arms and mind around God, right? The idea, okay. I'm just gonna throw a bunch of stuff out there. There's three gods, he has always been here, like there was never a time when he wasn't here, you know, like like um yeah that you know, so it's hard to like connect with that God. He's he can be thought of as so abstract, yeah, um, and not close to me. Um, and then you know what comes with that is yeah, and if he's such a loving God, why is there suffering? You know, like like and and that's that's a fair question, a wonderful question, a question, you know, I want to talk about that at some point because I think it's just I think it's spot on um from a standpoint of you should doubt that, like you should you should wrestle with that.

SPEAKER_00 14:53

And we're not absolutely ever going to just dismiss that it's not about white picket fences and rainbows, like this, this is a tough life we're living here, right? This world is a tough world we're living here, yeah. We're not going to dismiss that. We're not trying to be all polyannish and red, you know, you know, rose-colored glasses, right? But we're trying, I think, I think what I'm hearing you say, and what I completely agree with, is in the suffering, there is this, there is this love that comes down to us, and and at the end of the day, because we're imperfect, we don't even deserve the love, but yet we have it, which is nuts, right? And and you know, especially in a tick tock culture where we get instant gratification, I I you know, I got a phone in my pocket and I can access access the entire world. It's hard to be patient for for a prayer, right? To think that prayer even works, yeah. And and so folks will be like, Well, I tried praying, uh, nothing happened the next day, so I'm out, you know.

SPEAKER_01 16:02

But or or I don't even know how to pray, you know, like and and like yeah, well, like, like like I'm just gonna pray to some some guy up there, and he's gonna give me whatever I want.

SPEAKER_00 16:16

I mean, I mean, it's so much more rich, there's so much more to it than just the simplicity, exactly. And that that journey of educating myself and that journey of finding out more and asking the question, of being curious in that, yeah, has been has been fantastic to check out.

SPEAKER_01 16:35

Um, can we can we um can we touch on the last one, maybe the Bible, and then close it up. Does that work?

SPEAKER_00 16:41

That's exactly where, yeah, you're right in my mind.

SPEAKER_01 16:43

Oh, sweet. Um, yeah, and I uh not the last one, like there's there's all kinds of stuff we're not touching on, right? But these are the kind of kind of the the low-hanging fruit, the big one. But the Bible's another one, man. Like the Bible, particularly well, the old testament, right? Is really um difficult. Yeah, right. It's it's violent. Um it is uh um at times we see an angry god. Um there's slavery, there's mistreatment of women, at least how you know how we understand that today. Um there's all kinds of stuff in there that you know, I am sure people pick up the Bible, open, you know, page one, and pretty quickly they're like, What in the world?

SPEAKER_00 17:35

My my wife experienced that exact same thing.

SPEAKER_01 17:37

Is that right?

SPEAKER_00 17:37

Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, she she read it and she's like, I'm gonna really, you know, I wanna I wanna lift up my my connection, and she started going through, and it was just a train wreck. And she's like, you know what? I not only do I not connect with this old English, but at the end of the day, I don't even understand what's going on because it's not linear, yeah. And and she just and she's a believer, and she's like, Nah, I'm out, and I'm like, Wow, that's that's really messed up, you know, that's really messed up.

SPEAKER_01 18:07

And so, like, that's real, right? We get it. Um, you know, I think an episode that we will do, or two or three, or ten, I don't know, about the Bible, and just like, you know, what's in there and why and how um is near and dear to my heart. And it's something that because it's something that I read that enriches my life. But if you're at home and you haven't had that experience, I get that a thousand percent. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:35

What would you okay? So people have been hurt by the church, by other people, by but so by the institutions and and other people within those institutions. I would love to hear what you would like to say to those people who are thinking that exact same thing as they're listening to what we're having a conversation about.

SPEAKER_01 18:52

You know, like I I want to say I'm sorry. And and I don't say that, you know, thinking that an apology for me or for some empathy from me is really going to be impactful to you. Um but it's important that those words are said by people that um believe in the faith, right? Um because in my opinion, it's about two things. It's about loving God and loving others. And some of these things we've talked about are horrific, they're painful, and they really, really hurt people sometimes intentionally, right? And that is not that is not my experience with the faith in Jesus. Um, and if if it's yours, I just really on behalf of whoever that can be on half on behalf of, right? That's meaningful, I want to say I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00 19:56

Powerful man.

SPEAKER_01 19:58

And you know, it's real. I um real quick, um I got that. I I read a book. It's called Blue Like Jazz.

SPEAKER_00 20:10

I mean, what the hell does that even mean?

SPEAKER_01 20:12

Blue like blue light, what what does it even mean? But it's about this author I really like. Guy's name is Donald Miller, sold a million copies. Um, and on the bottom, just to give you an idea of what it's about, non-religious thoughts on Christian spirituality. All right, like so that's that that's awesome. And I'm I'm gonna explain the title just because I I was curious and I found this. So he says, I never like jazz music because jazz doesn't resolve, but but sometimes you have to watch somebody love something, you have to watch somebody love something before you can love it yourself. Says, I used to not like God because God didn't resolve, but that was before any of this happened, and then that's yeah, so and the reason I bring up this book, um, it's one it is one of my favorite books. I've read it a couple times. I love the way this guy writes. If you asked me if he was a Christian, I don't even know how, like right now, I would tell you he was, but before I don't know how he writes, I would have identified him as a Christian. One of the stories, real quick in his book, is he's at this really liberal college in Oregon, I think. Um, and um they have this weekend event that's a debauchery, right? Like everyone is getting drunk, you know, getting naked, like the whole nine yards. And he's involved in with this little small group of Christians, right? And and they're just kind of, you know, and and like maybe it's like less than 10 people, right? Um, and they're trying, they they believe what they believe, right? And they're together and that's meaningful for them, and they're trying to grow it, but they don't know how. Anyway, on this weekend, they have an idea to set up a booth that's for confessions. And all it's and all it says is something like, you know, give your confessions or confessions here or something like that. And you know, like they're there, like I don't know, all night, Friday, Saturday, you know, like for 72 hours and people are drunk. People start walking up and they're like, what is this? You know, what's going on? And they turned the table on them because they weren't asking for confessions. They gave they they confessed on behalf of Christianity, you know, and they talked to these people and they had like these beautiful wonderful conversations. How have you been hurt? And they, you know, they made amends and apologized. And it went on and on like a line of people, you know, um because they'd never heard that before. They'd probably never experienced that before. Well and I heard the story and I thought it was just such a cool story man. Like if more people could experience that right I mean just authentic non-judgmental accountable real conversation you know it it it would be a game changer. Yeah. Ah blue blue like jazz diagnosis and partly partially that's kind of what we're hoping to do here is is create a space yeah to where we can have conversations um be authentic be real and and and be accountable right full on I mean I I think that's a huge deal uh man you know yeah please please I can I just share one thing um before we I don't know if we're we're gearing towards wrapping up here but in going through this process right um because to be honest with you like we're doing some research here I don't know why all the reasons why people are hurt you know so I mean you know we're trying to educate ourselves and and talk to things that are meaningful. But through this process it occurred to me that um I did something that hurts someone close to me.

SPEAKER_00 24:11

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 24:12

Right okay um yeah and I had a you know all I'll say because I don't want to uh it it's not appropriate to um and you know and all that stuff um but I but I am going to have this conversation with this person because of this but the person close to me was dealing with in her life some someone close to her with sexuality gender issues etc right and I said something really freaking stupid um about sin that was related to their issues right I I mean I mean just just stupid um unintentional right like I'm I'm I'm trying to right you weren't trying to bash them well no I'm I'm trying to like communicate what I believe faith is right and and and that sin is a part of that which which is like the dumbest thing in the world to do in that situation right like we're humans and we can all screw up right I I screwed up um and like we're cool but I don't know if I've ever really closed the loop and made amends to her on this um and I it's something that I want to do because because I think it's important for all the reasons we're talking about you know why it's hard for people to come to faith.

SPEAKER_00 25:38

So I just want to out myself there and and and share and and this is one of the many reasons why I dig you bro because the accountability the character uh yeah that's yeah and that's not fun it's not easy no it's it's necessary and it's what it's it's what is being expected and asked of you just to be present in this moment for the love well and I and I I put it out there um because I want to do it and I want to hold myself accountable and if it's on a podcast I know at some point she will listen so you know the the clock is ticking you know fair enough it always amazes me how quickly the time goes by like it's could this seriously be 30 minutes already that's nuts but uh yeah here we are um and and what's crazy about this it the time goes by so fast we had a great discussion and we really just scratched the surface and so I mean I I I I dig this I I dig spending time with you I I really appreciate just having some real conversation creating a space where folks might hear stuff that they don't normally hear so just thank you so much and um you know at the end of the day we just appreciate people you know wanting to want to be a part of this and doubting and and uh coming in and and uh seeking at the same time being amen amen man i love the conversation uh and look forward to uh more and more of these uh down the road take care of yourselves everybody hey thanks for hanging out with us wherever you are with faith whether it's curious skeptical or just tired we're glad you're here and if this stirred up thoughts or questions don't rush past them just sit with them we'll keep the conversation going